[WoW]Wotlk:Raid instances to have 10 and 25 man versions, Death Knight starts at 55

[r3probate]

Originally Posted by Chrisb3

2. What is the acceptable level of gear for 10 mans?
Personally I think that 10 mans should have badly itemised gear (2 instead of 3 indivdual stats, more points wasted on spirit or whatever) the tier below otherwise there will be problems. Again hold back your tears until items get leaked, it's not like it's hard to adjust item levels.

Wait, so you want the 10 man raids to have badly itemized gear? So what exactly would be the point? I don't want to kill Arthas Lite for fucking Frozen Pauldrons of Godly Spirit.

Sure, make the 10 mans have lower quality epics, but what the fuck dude, don't wish bad itemization on anyone.

[Jubee]

Originally Posted by Chrisb3

My only concern here is that you run 10 mans until you reach the last dungeon, gear up in it and then switch to the 25 man version. Skipping every 25 man other than the last. Hence the need of having gear more than one tier behind.

Keep in mind that it's not just a gear level in question. It's convincing 24 other people to go along with your idea. While in theory it may sound good to clear to Arthas and then go back and "skip" the other raid zones, where are you going to find the people for that idea? What will you do if Group C gets stuck on zone 2 while Group A is farming Arthas? And 10 does not go into 25 evenly. You are either going to have 5 people severely undergeared or 5 people that have to sit on the bench.

Not to mention the difference in mechanics. A great 10 man healer maybe terrible for 25 mans (see: Paladins, Holy.) Just because Johny the Priest did well in 10 mans doesn't mean he will be able to jump straight from that into Icecrown Glacier 25 mans. I think 10 -> 25 man jumping will be an extreme minority.

[Izuldan]

Originally Posted by Tancred

So I raid twice a week. But I still resent the "casual" tag. I play hard. I play often. We only got our act together a couple of months ago. Throw 10 "casuals" into ZA and see how they do. It won't be pretty but we are half way through learning it and have our Karazhan clears down to ~3 hours. Most of us study our classes, spec properly, and work hard to attain the best gear in each slot that's available at our raid-level. So fuck off with that casual shit k?

But now we've mastered Karazhan we have ZA to do. Then. . .nothing. Farming badges for T6-equiv loot sounds great but it's dull as hell. Give me 4 challenging 10-mans to progress through instead.

You seem all bent out of shape because you've decided that "everyone wins" and "casuals want free loots that are as good as 25man ones". It's a bullshit premise leading you to a bullshit argument. Yes, now, right at the very end of an expansion, time-limited players can choose to farm badgers and get some decent loots. You know why? So Blizzard doesn't have a balancing nightmare come WotLK. They can now balance it around a decent gear level for almost eveyone. Top T6 guilds will still blast through. The rest of us will have to go slower to get to the same point.

Agreed. What's also amazing is this mentality that Etoille and I'm sure others feel that somehow 25-man raids by neccessity means more skill is involved than 10-man raids. Sure, the amount of coordination required is more, but not necessarily skill. The design just requires more man-power, and therefore more chances for things to fuck up.

But it's almost like saying somehow those 25 raiders are better than 10 raiders....like saying somehow the Army is better than the Marines, because the Army can go in to a country like Iraq and conquer the whole damn thing, while the Marines can only go in and take out situational targets or targets of opportunity. Still personally I think the Marines have more prestige than the Army. I would rather raid with 9 good buddies I trusted and were highly competent, the best at their class, than to raid with 24 buddies where maybe 20 were really good at their class and the other 4 were so-so.

And let's also not forget there is no true casual player that posts on the FoH forums. Almost all of us come from some hardcore playing background from EQ days, hence why we end up posting on here. So it's not like we suck at gaming suddenly because we no longer are involved with high-end raiding and 25-man content. A lot of us have grown older and no longer have the time commitment because of RL commitments. It doesn't mean we don't know how to play anymore. It means we are still playing MMOs because we enjoy them, and we would still like to experience content, and 10-man content is more accessible to us than 25-man content. Keep your Tier 8 loot that you will be getting out of the new content while we will be getting Tier 7 loot from the 10-man versions. Honestly, the only person that seems to care is people like Etoille.

[Digo]

You're overlooking something. Because 10-mans are inherently more accessible to a greater number of people, the difficulty should also be lower so those same people can actually have a chance at completing them. I'm not saying there aren't skilled players that don't have time to raid in 25-mans anymore (even I don't have time to raid anymore), but don't overestimate the capabilities of the playerbase at large. Most people are not nearly as good as they think they are.

[Izuldan]

Originally Posted by Digo

You're overlooking something. Because 10-mans are inherently more accessible to a greater number of people, the difficulty should also be lower so those same people can actually have a chance at completing them. I'm not saying there aren't skilled players that don't have time to raid in 25-mans anymore (even I don't have time to raid anymore), but don't overestimate the capabilities of the playerbase at large. Most people are not nearly as good as they think they are.

True. Which is why you can make some 10-mans easy, entry level dungeons, and make some 10-mans incredibly difficult, for a real challenge.

There is no rule that all 10-man dungeons have to be of the same difficulty level, or that they all have to drop the same level loot. I also don't buy the argument that greater accessibility has to mean "make things easier". You can have a whole gradient of challenges. That would be like saying all 5-mans should be of lower difficulty because it's more accessible......well, obviously they didn't follow that rule, because Magister's Terrace is probably harder than any regular 5-man out there, and heroic Magister's is probably the most difficult heroic out there as well. So it's not like Blizzard is going "well, it's only 5-man content, let's make it easy so people can enjoy it". They understand people like a challenge, whether it's 5-man or 25-man.

It's just about access. You want to talk about striving for something? A casual does the early 10-man raids in WotLK. Gets some loot. He'll never be able to participate in 25-man raids for reasons outlined before. But he does have something to strive for.......the "uber" 10-man raid, let's say it's the one involving Arthas.

Will he be able to kill complete the uber 10-man dungeon? Only time will tell. One thing is for sure though - at least he will be able to attempt it. How many players, casual or not, are competent players but can't currently do 25-man content because they are not part of a large guild?

[Jubee]

Originally Posted by Digo

You're overlooking something. Because 10-mans are inherently more accessible to a greater number of people, the difficulty should also be lower so those same people can actually have a chance at completing them. I'm not saying there aren't skilled players that don't have time to raid in 25-mans anymore (even I don't have time to raid anymore), but don't overestimate the capabilities of the playerbase at large. Most people are not nearly as good as they think they are.

That may be, but making the 10 man versions easier will be a death sentence for 25 man raids. I may hate raiding for what it's done to the genre but I also don't want to condemn it for the people that still enjoy it. If 10 man Sunwell gave out BT/Hyjal loot and was easily completed, how many people in your guild would still show up to 25 mans?

[Izuldan]

Originally Posted by Jubee

That may be, but making the 10 man versions easier will be a death sentence for 25 man raids. I may hate raiding for what it's done to the genre but I also don't want to condemn it for the people that still enjoy it. If 10 man Sunwell gave out BT/Hyjal loot and was easily completed, how many people in your guild would still show up to 25 mans?

Um.....all of them?

If you are doing 25-man Sunwell, then aren't you already decked out in BT/Hyjal? So what's the point of doing the 10-man version? If you are doing a hypothetical 10-man Sunwell because you still need those BT/Hyjal level loots as upgrades, then you have no business being in the 25-man instance; I'm sure Brutallus would be happy to show your ass out at the door.

[Chrisb3]

Originally Posted by Jubee

Keep in mind that it's not just a gear level in question. It's convincing 24 other people to go along with your idea. While in theory it may sound good to clear to Arthas and then go back and "skip" the other raid zones, where are you going to find the people for that idea? What will you do if Group C gets stuck on zone 2 while Group A is farming Arthas? And 10 does not go into 25 evenly. You are either going to have 5 people severely undergeared or 5 people that have to sit on the bench.

Not to mention the difference in mechanics. A great 10 man healer maybe terrible for 25 mans (see: Paladins, Holy.) Just because Johny the Priest did well in 10 mans doesn't mean he will be able to jump straight from that into Icecrown Glacier 25 mans. I think 10 -> 25 man jumping will be an extreme minority.

What the fuck are you talking about. You do not farm 10 mans with static groups, and raid guilds do not have exactly 25 players.

You have your 10 man group(s) and clear up to 10 man Arthas. Then you have at least 10 players with the gear to start the 25 man version of the final dungeon. Then you can merge with similar guild or recruit a few players in a similar situation.
I'm sure hardcore guilds will farm both for loot and probally be the majority, but more casual guilds can skip every 25 man but the last if they can do the 10 man versions. It's not a case of going along with an idea, many guilds which can only do 10 mans will do this by accident.

With TBC my old guild fell apart and went from 40 man raids to starting karazan slightly late. We farmed kara for quite a while and never got the numbers to start gruul until the guild disbanded and later semi reformed with another guild.
Now if there was 10 man progresstion, our core group of 10 players would have happily cleared far into the raid content. Only instead of disbanding and eventually getting it together to start Gruul's Lair, with these changes we would have started Black Temple 25 man instead of Gruul.

This leads me onto the other guy that quoted me, by badly itemised I mean like how Badge T6 is inferior to real T6. It is just a way of reducing the quality of the loot while keeping the same item level.
Rather than see 10 man raiding two tiers behind (which prevents skipping many 25 mans), I want to see it one tier behind but with different itemisation which will effectivly make the loot 1.5 tier's behind.

[Mist]

Didn't they say that in most cases the 25 man would be open before the 10 man version of the same zone?

[Jubee]

Originally Posted by Izuldan

Um.....all of them?

If you are doing 25-man Sunwell, then aren't you already decked out in BT/Hyjal? So what's the point of doing the 10-man version? If you are doing a hypothetical 10-man Sunwell because you still need those BT/Hyjal level loots as upgrades, then you have no business being in the 25-man instance; I'm sure Brutallus would be happy to show your ass out at the door.

You are looking at it as if they were to implement 10 man raids now as opposed to being around from the start of BC. A ton of guilds crashed with the change in raid sized from 40 to 25 mans when BC released. During that rebuilding process, how many would have bothered to go up to 25 man if they could see the content with just their "core?" I raided for 4 years in EQ and 2 years in WoW and I never once talked to a raider that didn't hate half of the people in their own guild. I personally have 8 people on my ignore list. 7 of them are my own guildies. I would never put up with these people if they didn't roll the correct class a few years ago.

Would you have wrangled up 15 extra bodies if you didn't need to in order to see new content? A vast majority of the guilds out there would not.

[Izuldan]

Originally Posted by Jubee

You are looking at it as if they were to implement 10 man raids now as opposed to being around from the start of BC.

A ton of guilds crashed with the change in raid sized from 40 to 25 mans when BC released. During that rebuilding process, how many would have bothered to go up to 25 man if they could see the content with just their "core?" I raided for 4 years in EQ and 2 years in WoW and I never once talked to a raider that didn't hate half of the people in their own guild. I personally have 8 people on my ignore list. 7 of them are my own guildies. I would never put up with these people if they didn't roll the correct class a few years ago.

Would you have wrangled up 15 extra bodies if you didn't need to in order to see new content? A vast majority of the guilds out there would not.

Riiiight......because most 25-man raid guilds today are from those old former 40-man guilds downsizing, and not from smaller guilds merging into bigger ones? Is that your assumption?

Let's not forget also that with WotlK, there is no real change to raid sizes. You will still have your 25-man raids, which makes your whole point moot. You think just because 10-man raids exist that those guilds are gonna fall apart? You think smaller guilds doing 10-man content won't grow to do 25-man content like they do already on practically every server? And in response to your question "during that rebuilding process, how many would have bothered to go up to 25 man if they could see the content with just their "core?", I guess it would depend on how important having the best loot is to them, because the best loot is still going to come out of the 25-man instances.

You know, because according to you, guilds doing 10-man content never man up and add people to do 25-man content.

And btw, I totally can sympathize with you about the guildies thing. The larger a guild gets, the more drama it seems, and the more chances there are that someone in the guild is gonna rub you the wrong way. All the more reason to keep guilds small, which is another great reason to focus on 10-man raids instead of 25-man raids, just like it's better than 40-man raids. Why be forced to raid with people you don't get along with just because you need a certain inflated number of participants, when you can have more fun raiding with fewer people you do get along with and have a good, drama-free time? I'm paying money to have fun, with people I like hanging out with (the MMO part), and not deal with other people's bullshit.

[Kaxmax]

Originally Posted by Izuldan

Let's not forget also that with WotlK, there is no real change to raid sizes. You will still have your 25-man raids, which makes your whole point moot. You think just because 10-man raids exist that those guilds are gonna fall apart?

It wouldn't surprise me if many guilds collapse. When I was actively raiding there were 10-15 people I actually liked, a bunch I tolerated, and quite a few I actively disliked. Given the option to raid the same content with 10 people I liked I'd gladly take that option, even with the downside of lesser loot.

I'm sure there are plenty who are similar to me, and I'm still not sure if it's a good or a bad thing.

[Deris]

Originally Posted by The Ancient

(More than) half of Karazhan is optional bosses.

Karazhan is also possible in greens with little to no experience on any of the fights. I want a real challenge in every zone, not show up, afk for trash, kill boss, loot, port out. Oh boy, SO CHALLENGING JESUS FUCK SO HARD GOD WHY ARE MMOS SO HARD. Sunwell is the first zone with a decent challenge, and mostly just because instead of relying on 1-2 key people per fight, some rely on practically everyone in the raid.

[MinionOfCthulhu]

Originally Posted by Jubee

It was pointed out on another forum I visit that the card game version of Titan Grip, you can have a 2 hander in your main hand but have to use a 1 hander in your offhand.

Incorrect. The card specifically says that 'one or both of your weapons can be two handed'.

[Zehn - Vhex]

The main thing that sucks about 10 man raids is that you can't have gear check fights because class stacking with those few people becomes insanely powerful. And the people most attracted to 10-man content are going to be put off once they realize how absolutely terrible a retadin is in a 10 man setup.