[WoW]Wotlk:Raid instances to have 10 and 25 man versions, Death Knight starts at 55

[The Ancient]

Originally Posted by Deris

Also Optional Bosses - Bring them back. (Jin'Do the Hexxer, Fish Boss, Ouro, Viscidus - where did you guys go?!)

(More than) half of Karazhan is optional bosses.

[rangoth]

Originally Posted by Etoille

hey i didnt start the analogy game :P

and its asinine to you. but youre obviously biased (as am i as is everyone).

its my opinion and in the end it doesnt matter much more than yours if at all except to anyone but me.

i just wish that people would actually try to have a little empathy for raiders/hardcores instead of YOU ONLY WANT TO STROKE YOUR PEENZ and as zehn said, the ability to see that this infact may well lead to a downward spiral. (since we're playing the zehn said game).

Touche on the opinions, because that's all this is at this point since we have so little facts.

I guess what I am asking, since I have either missed it or failed to understand properly...what should I have empathy for raiders/hardcores for exactly? 25 man's are not going away, and the loot will still be better. And we also don't know if its just boss +100000000hp or extra technique's and effects or whatever. It could be a significantly more complex encounter(maybe a bit of both of those?).

What are you(raiders/hardcores) loosing? Let's, for conversation, say the top gear in the expansion is BT/Sunwell gear(T6-T6.5). What would you say is acceptable gear for the top 10 man version of the top 25 man raid?
T4-T5? Kara? Heroic gear?

[Azzikai]

Originally Posted by Tancred

I play in a 10man guild. Its all I have time for.

I don't want the same loot as 25-man raiders. I don't honestly give a crap about how leet my purplez are.

I just want as much to do as 25-man raiders. I want the same number of options on how to spend my time.

10-man versions of all raid zones in WotLK is a stroke of genius and I can't wait. Blizzard giving more to players like me IN NO WAY takes anything away from 25-man raiders. WoW is not a zero sum game. For you to win doesn't mean someone else has to lose.

If all this bothers you the problem lies with you not with the rest of us.

It isn't about winning or losing, at least not for me. It is about the re-use of the content and trying to pass it off as something completely different.

It is like, what if the 5 man content had 10 man raid versions? Same zone, same bosses, upgraded loot. Would that be acceptable or would people who want to do 10 man stuff feel a bit slighted? Not because others have access but because they get to do the same stuff twice. Think about it, how many people go back and do normal dungeons once they can do heroics and how many of those whine about having to do the same shit over and over (*hint* it is been mentioned in this thread already). That's the problem I have with the 10/25 man flip a switch scenario.

I honestly wouldn't care if there were 50 10-man raid dungeons and 3 25-man ones. As long as they were something different, something that I wasn't already doing anyway. Something that didn't remind me of EQ2's KoS expansion when it comes to lackluster raiding environments.

[rangoth]

Originally Posted by Azzikai

It isn't about winning or losing, at least not for me. It is about the re-use of the content and trying to pass it off as something completely different.

It is like, what if the 5 man content had 10 man raid versions? Same zone, same bosses, upgraded loot. Would that be acceptable or would people who want to do 10 man stuff feel a bit slighted? Not because others have access but because they get to do the same stuff twice. Think about it, how many people go back and do normal dungeons once they can do heroics and how many of those whine about having to do the same shit over and over (*hint* it is been mentioned in this thread already). That's the problem I have with the 10/25 man flip a switch scenario.

I honestly wouldn't care if there were 50 10-man raid dungeons and 3 25-man ones. As long as they were something different, something that I wasn't already doing anyway. Something that didn't remind me of EQ2's KoS expansion when it comes to lackluster raiding environments.

See this is somewhat of a good point. If they made five 10 mans and five 25 mans and they were different but progressed equally, I would also be ok with that.

The current complaint is that there is nothing to do once you beat the current 10 man's while everyone else gets to continue improving and beating really difficult shit and getting better loot. If they make the 10/25 man thing the same progression line but different bosses and different layout's and shit that a-ok.

What I thought people were asking for was an alternate progression curve. really easy 10 mans for the casuals or whatever we are calling them, then the others get progressivly harder(requiring gear from the previous) to beat until the climax where maybe you get to fight the expansion boss still(only "repeat" boss between the 10/25's?).

[Tancred]

Originally Posted by Etoille

I notice that many of the people here saying yay 10 mans are saying that because they dont have time to coordinate 25 people.

So.......we're not going to believe the casual people themselves when they talk? Because Tancred just said this like 5 posts up. Along with several other people in the last few pages.

It's not about having time to co-ordinate its about time full stop. I used to raid 40-man in early vanilla but changes to my work and family mean I can no longer do so. I can only reliably play from 8pm onwards. I cannot commit 4+ hours to raiding 4+ times a week and its further complicated by being in the UK which is one hour behind the rest of Europe. How many raid guilds start at 9pm?

So I raid twice a week. But I still resent the "casual" tag. I play hard. I play often. We only got our act together a couple of months ago. Throw 10 "casuals" into ZA and see how they do. It won't be pretty but we are half way through learning it and have our Karazhan clears down to ~3 hours. Most of us study our classes, spec properly, and work hard to attain the best gear in each slot that's available at our raid-level. So fuck off with that casual shit k?

But now we've mastered Karazhan we have ZA to do. Then. . .nothing. Farming badges for T6-equiv loot sounds great but it's dull as hell. Give me 4 challenging 10-mans to progress through instead.

You seem all bent out of shape because you've decided that "everyone wins" and "casuals want free loots that are as good as 25man ones". It's a bullshit premise leading you to a bullshit argument. Yes, now, right at the very end of an expansion, time-limited players can choose to farm badgers and get some decent loots. You know why? So Blizzard doesn't have a balancing nightmare come WotLK. They can now balance it around a decent gear level for almost eveyone. Top T6 guilds will still blast through. The rest of us will have to go slower to get to the same point.

No way will the 10-mans give the same loot as the 25s in the same way you don't get TK loots from Heroic Magisters Kael.

Your epeen needn't feel so threatened by Blizzard offering more content for the rest of us. Hardcore Casuals like me will enjoy fighting through all the 10-mans including the most difficult. The true casuals will still do their casual thing, like all the Karazhan guilds that never set foot in ZA. There will still be a top layer of loot out of reach of 10-mans, and what loot is available to all will take casuals 5x longer to acquire than 25-man raiders.

[Tancred]

Originally Posted by Azzikai

It isn't about winning or losing, at least not for me. It is about the re-use of the content and trying to pass it off as something completely different.

It is like, what if the 5 man content had 10 man raid versions? Same zone, same bosses, upgraded loot. Would that be acceptable or would people who want to do 10 man stuff feel a bit slighted?

You're another one with your panties in a bunch over nothing. "Same bosses"? They might look the same but they'll fight differently. No other way to balance things I can think of.

You say they "just added a difficulty slider" like thats an EASY thing to do. It really isn't.

I'm sure they have the talent to make 5x different 25-mans and 8x distinct 10-mans as well. But I'd like the expansion this year not in 2011 thanks.

Offering people more choice is never a bad thing.

[column]

Originally Posted by Tancred

You're another one with your panties in a bunch over nothing. "Same bosses"?.

I like to say Panties in a wad. Mixes it up abit

[Azzikai]

Originally Posted by Tancred

You're another one with your panties in a bunch over nothing. "Same bosses"? They might look the same but they'll fight differently. No other way to balance things I can think of.

You say they "just added a difficulty slider" like thats an EASY thing to do. It really isn't.

I'm sure they have the talent to make 5x different 25-mans and 8x distinct 10-mans as well. But I'd like the expansion this year not in 2011 thanks.

Offering people more choice is never a bad thing.

You miss the point entirely. Not exactly a surprise but, hey, it was worth a shot.

Is the layout the same? Yes.
Are the boss models the same? Yes
Do the bosses have an extra trick, more hp, added AE or something? Yes
Does this last bit change that the zone will look and feel exactly the same? No

You certainly must be easy to please when it comes to game content. Hell, why not just have every zone be the exact same layout as Slave Pens with the same mobs models and everything. As long as SP4 has an AE effect and more HP than SP7 you would apparently be happy

[Kaxmax]

Originally Posted by Azzikai

You certainly must be easy to please when it comes to game content. Hell, why not just have every zone be the exact same layout as Slave Pens with the same mobs models and everything. As long as SP4 has an AE effect and more HP than SP7 you would apparently be happy

Scenario A, the current implementation, Tancred and his group never see the zone, and never go through the storyline. Scenario B, upcoming in WoTLK, they get to experience the content in an easier state than their 25 man counterparts.

It's not re-used content for Tancred's group, because they'd never see it otherwise. It will be re-used content for the 25 man raiders, which sucks I guess, but I really doubt Blizzard cares. Those people will probably continue to play, and now their bread & butter gets to experience more of the content.

[rangoth]

Originally Posted by Azzikai

Is the layout the same? Yes.
Are the boss models the same? Yes
Do the bosses have an extra trick, more hp, added AE or something? Yes
Does this last bit change that the zone will look and feel exactly the same? No

In fairness, we do not know that yet. But it makes me sad that I agree with you it probably will be that simple

[Agraza]

The casuals are asking for progression. They don't care that it's the same raid as 25 man. They probably want it to be the same raid so they can more easily adopt 25 man strats. Who the hell cares about it being unique?

[Tancred]

Originally Posted by Azzikai

You miss the point entirely. Not exactly a surprise but, hey, it was worth a shot.

Is the layout the same? Yes.
Are the boss models the same? Yes
Do the bosses have an extra trick, more hp, added AE or something? Yes
Does this last bit change that the zone will look and feel exactly the same? No

You certainly must be easy to please when it comes to game content. Hell, why not just have every zone be the exact same layout as Slave Pens with the same mobs models and everything. As long as SP4 has an AE effect and more HP than SP7 you would apparently be happy

I got your point, bucko. What's the problem?

You don't know what the differences will be so you're constructing an oversimplified straw-man. How does Magisters Kael compare to TK? Is it just "an AE and a few more HP?" Serious question as I've never done the 25 man one. But I doubt it. 25-man encounters allow for considerably more complexity.

Same zone, same models, so what? I do the 10-man, you do the 25-man. You get X number of raids to progress through and so do I. Everybody happy. Except you aren't for some reason.

I think you had an emotional "omg not fair!" response when you heard the initial announcement and now you're constructing these silly arguments to try and justify that gut reaction.

And btw suggesting that my standards are somehow low becuase i'm not crying salty tears over this situation and would be happy with "every zone being a copy of SP" isn't making a good argument. It's making you look like a cunt.

[lumberjack]

Originally Posted by Etoille

i just wish that people would actually try to have a little empathy for raiders/hardcores

why should they? you guys obviously don't give a shit about anyone else
to come here whining that no one cares about your stupid non issue is fucking retarded

you will still have 25 mans to stroke your withered epeen to progress through and enjoy, and other folks will have the option of doing the 10 mans

get over yourself, the universe does NOT revolve around you

[Zehn - Vhex]

Nobody has a problem with more content. The problem is it's the same content, same story, same everything.

They're going to either end up designing the encounter for 10 people and then just tack on an AE for the 25 man to deal with. Which cheapens the 25 person experience.

Or they'll design for the 25 man and then strip out everything that makes it hard, which cheapens the 10 man experience.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe they hired some genius designers that aren't going to do lame shit like this. But I'd rather bitch about it now and be proven wrong then go smoke a bowl and say "EVERYTHING WILL BE WONDERFUL...THE MIRACLE PATCH WILL MAKE IT ALL GREAT!"

[Chrisb3]

Remember last expansions big shock "40/20man raids changed to 25/10man raids" announcement?
Everyone stopped playing then so it's not like WoW is going to lose any subs this time around!

I am sick of this shit. Stop crying you "hardcore" raiders and actually tell us what you think is acceptable. Explain how things should be instead of whining.

1. Is having 25 mans as heroic mode acceptable?
I say yes. Remember it's not reusing content, it's doubling it and you can skip 10 mans and run your 25 man once a week. You can cry when the amount of raids is announced and there are half as many, not before. This is going to work out just like heroic dungeons and I don't think that it lead to a drop in used content, just an increase.

2. What is the acceptable level of gear for 10 mans?
Personally I think that 10 mans should have badly itemised gear (2 instead of 3 indivdual stats, more points wasted on spirit or whatever) the tier below otherwise there will be problems. Again hold back your tears until items get leaked, it's not like it's hard to adjust item levels.
My only concern here is that you run 10 mans until you reach the last dungeon, gear up in it and then switch to the 25 man version. Skipping every 25 man other than the last. Hence the need of having gear more than one tier behind.

Also about how good these dungeons will be designed, consider Keal'thas 25 man and 5 man. I think that will be a good indicator of how it will work out, with the smaller version much more complex ofc.