[WoW]Wotlk:Raid instances to have 10 and 25 man versions, Death Knight starts at 55

[Jubee]

Originally Posted by Etoille

4 25 man dungeons were in TBC (6 if you count mag and gruuls both very short though). 2 10 man dungeons were in TBC. it seems very very very appropriately balanced to me. but theyre unhappy with a proportional balance and theyd be even less happy if the epics were only half as good. some of the things to come out of ZA and even Kara are still friggin amazing items. they get tier 6 equivalent in badge gear and i still see posts that are like "I WANT A WAY TO GET BADGEZ BESIDEZ DAILIEZ THAT I CAN DO SOLOZ".

2 10 mans vs. 4 25 mans is balanced to you? They've already stated that Kara is far and away the most popular dungeon they've ever created. There are FAR more small guilds that go into Kara every week than there are 25 man raiding guilds. A more appropriate balance would be 4 10 mans and 2 25 mans. Say it with me again - 25 man raiders are one of the smallest demographics in the game.

At the end of the day this is a game. Not a job. If you don't want to progress your character or see new things without sitting at the back of 24 other catasses, then that is your strange view on the world. People in this very thread are bitching about how old content goes unused. Now the guy that doesn't want to deal with the drama that is 25 man raiding has an opportunity to see it and you are going on a crusade to bitch about it.

It's nothing but a good thing. You are viewing it as an ex raider and are getting pissed because smaller groups of people are able to see and possibly kill important characters to the lolore. I don't know how you can still be concerned with lore after space cows crashed and elves stole their windchime that allowed themselves to become Paladins. You can bitch about how the casual guy gets to do all the cool stuff you would normally have to poopsock for. You may find the odd retard that will think 10 man loot should be better than 25 man. You will also find the odd retard that gets his panties in a bunch because players he will never talk to have more stuff to do in a fucking game.

[rangoth]

Originally Posted by spronk

stuffs

I guess I just disagree with you there. I don't so much see people raiding 25 man's do it for the love or the lore...I think it's simple, loot! And from that loot they can fight the next toughest place for more and better loot!

Now people in 10 man options can do the same, progress BELOW, but on the same ling with the 25 man's anyway. And while this is unknown, I don't think that the stat different will be minor. I've got NO proof here so take this as you may, but I think it will be along the lines of top badge gear now compared to BT/Sunwell shit. Which in my opinion is a huge difference.

[Sharmai]

Originally Posted by Etoille

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

youre completely right. casuals dont aspire to become raiders. they (many of them but not all) aspire to get the same things that raiders have without doing/putting in all the work/time that raiders do. completely agree.

look maybe its because ive been there on the hardcore end but i have no thought in my head that now that im casual i should get to experience everything in the game, from epics to all the content. i know what kind of work and effort it takes (or should take) to get there and that the best items/content in the game should be the reward for that effort. its not about epeenery its about "i put in the time i get this as my reward."

as a casual now i dont ask for that same kind of experience because i actually understand that if it were available to me that easily it would cheapen the accomplishments of other people who are willing to put the time in.

the best analogy is this.

do part time workers at your company get weeks of paid vacation? do they get full health care coverage? if youre fulltime at your company and you decide to go part time are they required to give you the maximum benefits or even benefits remotely on par with a full timer?

no. you get out of something whether it be a job a sport an mmo a reward that is appropriate for the time and effort you put in.

an mmo is specifically designed to be a time sink. if you want to be able to pick a game up for a few hours a week mmos are not for you if you want to "finish/beat the game".

im not saying that casuals shouldnt get anything. but their rewards for playing say 10 hours a week shouldnt be close to the rewards (be it content available or epics) a person who plays 20 hours a week. 4 25 man dungeons were in TBC (6 if you count mag and gruuls both very short though). 2 10 man dungeons were in TBC. it seems very very very appropriately balanced to me. but theyre unhappy with a proportional balance and theyd be even less happy if the epics were only half as good. some of the things to come out of ZA and even Kara are still friggin amazing items. they get tier 6 equivalent in badge gear and i still see posts that are like "I WANT A WAY TO GET BADGEZ BESIDEZ DAILIEZ THAT I CAN DO SOLOZ".

and if their argument is "well i play the same amount im just standing in org or cant find other people to group with or no guild will take me" -- well then we know what the real problem is dont we? it zero to do with casuals and everything to do with either laziness or lack of skill.

Though I agree with you in principle I have to play Devil's Advocate for your example.

Consider that the full time employee is getting paid more then the half time employee so that balances out those lesser benefits etc. So in WoW that would mean a casual who can only put in 20 hours a week should only get half the content of a 40/hr week raider and should also only pay half the price right?

*Still I do agree with the principal of the idea More Work = Better Gear

[Etoille]

Jubee *shrug* its not a crusade.

youve posted a lot more about it than i have yo. its expressing an opinion. but from what ive seen anyone who expresses an opinion that conflicts with casuals opinions are immediately labelled with dozens of posts as epeen strokers so you tell me who's on the crazy ass crusade.

[dechire]

at the end of the day WoW wants to get off as many people as possible, by giving more 10 mans they do this. It sucks for the h/c guilds and i whole heartily agree with their bitterness, however the massive popularity of WoW means that some things will have to be sacrificed in order to appease the worshipers.

In the end i think a lot of us will be happy with the 10 mans as this will make our guilds and/or raiding groups much more personal and enjoyable then what it is currently like for a number of people, excellent players too, not just scrubs. There are a number of people who want to raid, but every experience they get is with subpar guilds.

[Valderen]

Originally Posted by spronk

I love the new 10 man changes as a casual, I never got to see BT/Hyjal/Sunwell before I cancelled, when WOTLK comes out I know if I resub I'll be able to see every zone which is nice.

However I can totally understand (as a former raider) why guild leaders are pissed off. Its a lot of work to "hold together" a guild, just dealing with all the 12 year old high school drama of raiding guilds is enough to drive anyone crazy. And the need for constant recruitment. The real bonus was seeing content that few people saw and fighting epic battles. With the WOTLK change, its really not worth it anymore, the tiny stat changes from 25 man gear is soooo not worth putting up with all the bullshit for most people.

And every 25 man raid guild leader knows 1/2 of the guild is gonna jump ship to a 10 man raiding guild the second WOTLK comes out (well the 1/2 thats still there by the time its out, 3/4ths of the guild will have stopped playing by then). Literally the guild officers can see the writing on their wall for their guild. And this is pretty much gonna hit all 25 man raiding guilds, except those maybe that are 4/6 in Sunwell or higher right now or those that are all RL friends (and I doubt many of those exist in the 25 man template... but do in 10 man).

Also I imagine the mass ban waves this week hurt a lot of the 25 man raiding guilds, I know a ton of top guilds that lost a lot of their ultra hardcore players - the guys who would farm 12 hours a day, who supplied all the herbs, etc. Of course we know how they did it lol

I find that interesting, and to me it seems to indicate a problem with the 25 man raiding mentality. Why would people stop doing something that they find "fun" and "enjoy" doing?

If raiders truly enjoy what the 25 man raid...this shouldn't be a problem, they should still be able to enjoy. My guess is more then anything else...they enjoy the exclusivity of it. If the actual raid itself is what they really, truly loved then they wouldn't care and would continue with their raiding because it's still gonna be there for them to do...hell they might very well end up with a lot more raiding content because all raids will be 10 and 25...so all the raids that were planned to be 10 man only will also be available as 25 man. It works both ways.

[Tancred]

I play in a 10man guild. Its all I have time for.

I don't want the same loot as 25-man raiders. I don't honestly give a crap about how leet my purplez are.

I just want as much to do as 25-man raiders. I want the same number of options on how to spend my time.

10-man versions of all raid zones in WotLK is a stroke of genius and I can't wait. Blizzard giving more to players like me IN NO WAY takes anything away from 25-man raiders. WoW is not a zero sum game. For you to win doesn't mean someone else has to lose.

If all this bothers you the problem lies with you not with the rest of us.

[Etoille]

Originally Posted by Sharmai

Though I agree with you in principle I have to play Devil's Advocate for your example.

Consider that the full time employee is getting paid more then the half time employee so that balances out those lesser benefits etc. So in WoW that would mean a casual who can only put in 20 hours a week should only get half the content of a 40/hr week raider and should also only pay half the price right?

*Still I do agree with the principal of the idea More Work = Better Gear

I actually dont have a problem with this - following the hellgate london model. The issue becomes enforcement which would be a nightmare from an implementation standpoint.

Buying "casual" subs which only allow for heroics and 10 mans would be a nightmare to enforce if say for instance that casual wanted to buy a run through BT on farm for another guild.

[Zerai]

Originally Posted by Tancred

I play in a 10man guild. Its all I have time for.

I don't want the same loot as 25-man raiders. I don't honestly give a crap about how leet my purplez are.

I just want as much to do as 25-man raiders. I want the same number of options on how to spend my time.

10-man versions of all raid zones in WotLK is a stroke of genius and I can't wait. Blizzard giving more to players like me IN NO WAY takes anything away from 25-man raiders. WoW is not a zero sum game. For you to win doesn't mean someone else has to lose.

If all this bothers you the problem lies with you not with the rest of us.

This is what you are missing Etoille

[Jubee]

I notice everyone is constantly calling the 10 man players "casuals."

We haven't seen anything out of WotLK besides a few models and some datamined talents. 10 man raiding may in fact take up more time than the 25 man versions. You'll probably spend less time prepping or waiting for a random member to come back from afk, but just because it's 10 man doesn't mean it's going to be easy and short. When Kara was new, it was a gigantic zone that most guilds took multiple days to complete. I can't imagine 10 guys steamrolling through Naxx in a single night until they significantly outgear it.

[Etoille]

Originally Posted by Zerai

This is what you are missing Etoille

*shrug* perhaps.

its our "every kid gets a trophy" mentality as a society just coming to fruition in games.

you cant tell me that people here would be happy if at any other place in their lives their efforts were only marginally rewarded for large efforts on their parts over someone who "doesnt have the time".

like i said i stand by my workplace analogy. if people saw part timers at work getting 12 days paid vacation for putting in 20 hours a week when they were putting in 40 plus hours a week for 15, theyd be up in arms.

and the part timers could say "i have kids, my vacation doesnt take away from yours". all the same argument.

not everyone who stars in a movie gets an oscar. its pretty simple.

a study found recently that the brain responds to praise and acheivement recognition the same as cash. when you cheapen that experience it DOES take away from someones accomplishments.

id have a lot easier time "not missing" these arguments zerai if casuals could at least say "hey you know maybe it DOES take away from what hardcores do. we are entitled to maybe a little more than we've gotten but at some point we have to realize that hardcores SHOULD get rewarded for their efforts".

the problem is that, as I stated intially, many casuals seem to be all take no give. and THAT is my biggest problem. the attitude. not the result.

[Etoille]

Originally Posted by Jubee

I notice everyone is constantly calling the 10 man players "casuals."

We haven't seen anything out of WotLK besides a few models and some datamined talents. 10 man raiding may in fact take up more time than the 25 man versions. You'll probably spend less time prepping or waiting for a random member to come back from afk, but just because it's 10 man doesn't mean it's going to be easy and short. When Kara was new, it was a gigantic zone that most guilds took multiple days to complete. I can't imagine 10 guys steamrolling through Naxx in a single night until they significantly outgear it.

I notice that many of the people here saying yay 10 mans are saying that because they dont have time to coordinate 25 people.

So.......we're not going to believe the casual people themselves when they talk? Because Tancred just said this like 5 posts up. Along with several other people in the last few pages.

[rangoth]

Originally Posted by Etoille

*shrug* perhaps.

its our "every kid gets a trophy" mentality as a society just coming to fruition in games.

you cant tell me that people here would be happy if at any other place in their lives their efforts were only marginally rewarded for large efforts on their parts over someone who "doesnt have the time".

like i said i stand by my workplace analogy. if people saw part timers at work getting 12 days paid vacation for putting in 20 hours a week when they were putting in 40 plus hours a week for 15, theyd be up in arms.

and the part timers could say "i have kids, my vacation doesnt take away from yours". all the same argument.

That first statement is just asinine. Seriously, read it again.


its our "every kid gets a trophy" mentality as a society just coming to fruition in games.

Everyone win's is coming to games? This is a problem? You realize the WoW you love that makes the uber 25 man's is fueled by the very people who want this. As someone else said Blizzard has openly revealed that kara was the most popular dungeon ever created. People WANT shit like that to do. And from the few interviews I heard it was hinted that the first 10 man's would be easier than kara, and the final ones much much harder. So, if those comments hold true, it's not exactly like every scrub will finishing every 10 man. I guess we will just have to wait and see there.

And your vacation analogy is horrible, I'm with Zehn on this, stop using RL analogies they suck on so many levels.

[Etoille]

hey i didnt start the analogy game :P

and its asinine to you. but youre obviously biased (as am i as is everyone).

its my opinion and in the end it doesnt matter much more than yours if at all except to anyone but me.

i just wish that people would actually try to have a little empathy for raiders/hardcores instead of YOU ONLY WANT TO STROKE YOUR PEENZ and as zehn said, the ability to see that this infact may well lead to a downward spiral. (since we're playing the zehn said game).

[Deris]

1) the Karazhan #'s are overinflated - My guild has run Karazhan every week since like... the first weekend we all hit 70. Thats alot of Karazhan. For a while we even ran two a week. 22 Badges a week for a 2.5-3h clear is nothing to scoff at.

2) 10 Man raids can also be hard : See number of Bear Mounts on a given server. W2B More things like this. Also Optional Bosses - Bring them back. (Jin'Do the Hexxer, Fish Boss, Ouro, Viscidus - where did you guys go?!)