[WoW]Wotlk:Raid instances to have 10 and 25 man versions, Death Knight starts at 55

[Izuldan]

Originally Posted by Etoille

I think eventually even the 10 man game suffers.

whether people like it or not the 25 man game gives casuals something to strive for.

I see people saying this all the time, and it's just simply not true. The true casual player will never partake of a 25-man raid, and therefore will have no access to loot from BT/SSC. No PUG or guild is going to take someone in blues or S1 PvP purples to 25-man content unless they know them personally. The only time the casual is going to see that content is *maybe* during the following expansion; and even then, probably not. How many casual players you think have gone back to clear Naxx or BWL?

It's different than EQ, mainly because of the gear reset. In EQ, casuals looked up to raiders because when the next expansion hit and the level cap got raised, casuals got to go back to the previous expansion's content and clear it to get semi-relevant loot, the same loot they were drooling over before. In WoW, casuals can get better loot from the new expansion just levelling, so there is no incentive to go back to old raids to get the same loot they used to drool over.

It's like saying because men look at supermodels, that somehow gives the Average Joe something to strive for, when in reality the Average Joe doesn't and won't ever have real access to supermodels. Well, to make the analogy complete, not until those models turn 50 and are no longer relevant.

[Wilfan]

Originally Posted by Rezz

On average, someone decked in "purple" gear back in vanilla (pre nax/aq40 and everyone having all their alts in full MC/BWL gear) was a safe bet on being a player who wasn't a complete retard. Just saying.

You're saying it wrong. The only difference is that most of those that couldn't advance past UBRS back in 1.0 are today running Kara, BGs and Arenas. So some people are purple instead of blue.

But on the other hand, raiders in vanilla were much more retarded on average than today's raiders. Bosses were less complicated and raids allowed for slack. You even put that disclaimer about late game and MC/BWL gear on alts. But do you think those with just mains in MC gear (usually missing Rag pieces) after a year were any better?

Perhaps more than half slots in Naxx gear would be a good indicator, but you're talking about teh purplez, not specific gear.

[Cybsled]

No PUG or guild is going to take someone in blues or S1 PvP purples to 25-man content unless they know them personally or they pay said guild a shitload of gold

Fixed.

[Azzikai]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

As was pointed out 8 pages ago it sets a downward spiral. With less incentive to maintain and put up with the challenges associated with a 25 man guild, the fear is that as fewer and fewer guilds bother putting up with it. With fewer players giving a shit, the 25 man game suffers.

I mean if that's eventually the road the game goes becuase that's what the masses want, all the more power to them. It's just at that point I'll be looking for a new game because 10 man raids are boring as fucking shit.

This is a fair point.

I look at my guild and wonder just how many are going to be able to see any raid content at all. We have a huge pool of raiders, though we struggle to get the necessary classes at times. Particularly multi-tank fights or new stuff where we need more than 6 well geared healers. Getting a 25-man raid together even now is a bit of a pain but it happens mostly because there isn't much else for most of us to do. It would seem that the option of a 10-man version of any raid would work out great but it will more than likely rip us apart.

There is nothing new but loot tables in the 25-man versions, which is just plain stupid. It is to be expected, though, Blizzard is just that way. But from a guild member perspective, why bother with the headache of an extra 15 people to run the same exact zone that you can without the added bother? I'm sure in Blizzard's mind they're giving us a choice. In my mind, they're just too damn stubborn to create enough content and have fallen back on repackaging the same shit with a different bow.

[Dumar]

blizzard is no longer a company run by gamers for gamers anymore.

any euphemisms you wanna use, any way you wanna slice it, any perspective you wanna take, this is the bottom line.

[Miele]

Originally Posted by Etoille

I think eventually even the 10 man game suffers.

whether people like it or not the 25 man game gives casuals something to strive for. it pushes progression. strats trickle down that are eventually implemented in 10 man versions of things (ex. council encounters) and 25 man progression actually fuels 10 man progression.

and zehn no 10 man ive ever been on with you has EVER been boring. ever.

Me and my small group of friends quitted during Vanilla WoW because we had fuck all to do. In January this year we came back, levelled to 70 from scratch, got some more friends coming back etc.
We are looking forward to do Karazhan in a week or two, something you do probably half asleep playing with mouse clicks only. After that, there is not much for us, but this will change in WotLK and I can only say thanks to Blizzard for this.

Personally I have no problems with raiders geared in full legendary and me in greenies as long as I have something to do as well, something that keeps me busy and doesn't force me to see the same dungeon 3000 times. They choosed to scale down raids to 10, I approve their choice.

What is going to happen to 25 men is not my concern and never will be anymore, for the time I have, organizing 10men is enough of a job.

[Etoille]

Originally Posted by Izuldan

I see people saying this all the time, and it's just simply not true. The true casual player will never partake of a 25-man raid, and therefore will have no access to loot from BT/SSC. No PUG or guild is going to take someone in blues or S1 PvP purples to 25-man content unless they know them personally. The only time the casual is going to see that content is *maybe* during the following expansion; and even then, probably not. How many casual players you think have gone back to clear Naxx or BWL?

It's different than EQ, mainly because of the gear reset. In EQ, casuals looked up to raiders because when the next expansion hit and the level cap got raised, casuals got to go back to the previous expansion's content and clear it to get semi-relevant loot, the same loot they were drooling over before. In WoW, casuals can get better loot from the new expansion just levelling, so there is no incentive to go back to old raids to get the same loot they used to drool over.

It's like saying because men look at supermodels, that somehow gives the Average Joe something to strive for, when in reality the Average Joe doesn't and won't ever have real access to supermodels. Well, to make the analogy complete, not until those models turn 50 and are no longer relevant.

your analogy completely fails. because many, many, many, women DO aspire to be models. whether by imitating fashion or binging and purging. they actually attribute the problem with women and self image in LARGE part to the fashion industry and supermodels.

youre making the argument that men dont want to be models and the corollary to that would be that people who dont game dont look up to raiders.

[Baazl]

It kind of works actually. Because men don't aspire to be supermodels. Men cannot become supermodels. Many casuals don't aspire are are unable to become raiders.

The sort of casual who sees raiding as "something to strive for" isn't a casual. He's a raider who hasn't been able to join a competent group yet.

[kasey]

Originally Posted by Izuldan

It's different than EQ, mainly because of the gear reset. In EQ, casuals looked up to raiders because when the next expansion hit and the level cap got raised, casuals got to go back to the previous expansion's content and clear it to get semi-relevant loot, the same loot they were drooling over before. In WoW, casuals can get better loot from the new expansion just levelling, so there is no incentive to go back to old raids to get the same loot they used to drool over.

One of the major flaws of WoW imo. Loot continuity. Such a waste of content. It would be great if Onyxia/ Molten core still had good stuff for 5mans or at least some novelties. For example (eq) when you were a raider and were done with Veeshans Peak did the rest of the game turn worthless like WoW? Nope. Even 5 years after the cloak of flames from Nagafen was still somewhat useful. It took years for the gear to be totally useless.

That gives a bad feeling imo. The immersion is heavily damaged when the "worth" of half the world is is zero. The amount of content is bottle necked. The old content is useless. Not even a twink should use that old loot and i can't even solo it either. Immersion killer.

[Azzikai]

I figured more people would be annoyed that WotLK is turning into Blizzard's version of LDoN. Instead of actually hand crafting dungeons that would make "raiding" interesting for both group sizes they simply add a difficulty slider and are getting away with it.

And people wonder why so many games coming out are shit, look at the "big dog" and the amount of crap it gets away with.

[Etoille]

Originally Posted by Baazl

It kind of works actually. Because men don't aspire to be supermodels. Men cannot become supermodels. Many casuals don't aspire are are unable to become raiders.

The sort of casual who sees raiding as "something to strive for" isn't a casual. He's a raider who hasn't been able to join a competent group yet.

youre completely right. casuals dont aspire to become raiders. they (many of them but not all) aspire to get the same things that raiders have without doing/putting in all the work/time that raiders do. completely agree.

look maybe its because ive been there on the hardcore end but i have no thought in my head that now that im casual i should get to experience everything in the game, from epics to all the content. i know what kind of work and effort it takes (or should take) to get there and that the best items/content in the game should be the reward for that effort. its not about epeenery its about "i put in the time i get this as my reward."

as a casual now i dont ask for that same kind of experience because i actually understand that if it were available to me that easily it would cheapen the accomplishments of other people who are willing to put the time in.

the best analogy is this.

do part time workers at your company get weeks of paid vacation? do they get full health care coverage? if youre fulltime at your company and you decide to go part time are they required to give you the maximum benefits or even benefits remotely on par with a full timer?

no. you get out of something whether it be a job a sport an mmo a reward that is appropriate for the time and effort you put in.

an mmo is specifically designed to be a time sink. if you want to be able to pick a game up for a few hours a week mmos are not for you if you want to "finish/beat the game".

im not saying that casuals shouldnt get anything. but their rewards for playing say 10 hours a week shouldnt be close to the rewards (be it content available or epics) a person who plays 20 hours a week. 4 25 man dungeons were in TBC (6 if you count mag and gruuls both very short though). 2 10 man dungeons were in TBC. it seems very very very appropriately balanced to me. but theyre unhappy with a proportional balance and theyd be even less happy if the epics were only half as good. some of the things to come out of ZA and even Kara are still friggin amazing items. they get tier 6 equivalent in badge gear and i still see posts that are like "I WANT A WAY TO GET BADGEZ BESIDEZ DAILIEZ THAT I CAN DO SOLOZ".

and if their argument is "well i play the same amount im just standing in org or cant find other people to group with or no guild will take me" -- well then we know what the real problem is dont we? it zero to do with casuals and everything to do with either laziness or lack of skill.

[The Ancient]

Originally Posted by Wilfan

You're saying it wrong. The only difference is that most of those that couldn't advance past UBRS back in 1.0 are today running Kara, BGs and Arenas. So some people are purple instead of blue.

But on the other hand, raiders in vanilla were much more retarded on average than today's raiders. Bosses were less complicated and raids allowed for slack. You even put that disclaimer about late game and MC/BWL gear on alts. But do you think those with just mains in MC gear (usually missing Rag pieces) after a year were any better?

Perhaps more than half slots in Naxx gear would be a good indicator, but you're talking about teh purplez, not specific gear.

This point was worth reiterating. Towards the end of the vanilla I felt more comfortable picking up someone in the .05 dungeon set than someone in MC gear. Cause why the fuck were they still in MC gear? We had been recruiting heavily from that talent pool for awhile and it hadn't produced great results.

[Miele]

Many many casuals just want content, not epics on par with Sunwell loot, here's where many raiders get it wrong. Maybe some casuals are really pissing in the raiders pool, but trust me, a ton of them do not give a fuck and just do whatever content is there for them to do.

In vanilla there was nothing, nothing, nothing (3 times) for casuals until Zul'Gurub and calling casual a 20 men dungeon is already a big stretch.
In TBC there is only Karazhan and later on ZA was added (way later).

I said it, they can even make every dungeon for 5 men or 10 men, I don't care, but a form of progression must exist for those who don't want to dabble in the monstrous job that is managing a guild of 25: replacing people that leave/quit, sitting out friends to stack certain classes and generally speaking a lot of guild drama to manage.

If they give me almost statless loot in those 10men places, as long as it's ok to beat the next tier of content, I'm fine. They can look like rugs too for what I care, I prefer newbie armor anyway to the robocop-wannabe outfit that is epic gear.

Content, fun things to do and I don't think collecting 500 BoJs is a funny activity if I have to do it in the same zones everyday.

[rangoth]

First off, I think we are bitching before we have all of the facts. I'm not saying I have 100% faith in what they will do, but it is all speculation at this point so....on to my speculation?

I don't understand what everyone's problem is, really I don't. The 25 man versions will have better gear(and probably better allocated points) and the encounters will most likely be more complex/difficult/invovled/fun(?).

It seems to me it's very similar to how everyone bitches about badge loot being better than raid gear, when at best...its roughly equal to a tier behind top raid gear, and even that is a seperate debate since the point allocation is less optimal. Not to mention to get decked out in full badge gear(using warrior since it is what I know best) you'd need something like 800 badges. And we've been over this before but if someone could please justify to me why that is a problem, since it would take a casual a fucking lifetime to earn that many, then I would love to listen.

I'm convinced at this point most of the bitching is nothing more than epeen anger, sorry if that offends anyone. That and the gear coloring scheme fucking with people's minds. So it's a tier below. If you have 150-200hp/mana gear from PoT is it really a problem that the people once behind you can also step up to 125-160hp/mana gear? Are you that pissed off about it? And if your justification is how hard you worked for 100%, when a casual does shit for 75%, maybe you should ask yourself why you are working so hard....for me anyway, it was always about defeating the encounter and the people I was with more than the loot. But whatever, I guess I am just ranting from the other side so it doesn't matter.

To summarize my ramblings: I seriously don't see any problem at all with having 10 raids that follow progression with 25, it allows those incapable or not wanting to be part of a 25 man to still experience the general feel of the dungeons, simplified versions of the boss fights, follow the lore and actually do something other than run slave pens once a day for 3 fucking badges.

[spronk]

I love the new 10 man changes as a casual, I never got to see BT/Hyjal/Sunwell before I cancelled, when WOTLK comes out I know if I resub I'll be able to see every zone which is nice.

However I can totally understand (as a former raider) why guild leaders are pissed off. Its a lot of work to "hold together" a guild, just dealing with all the 12 year old high school drama of raiding guilds is enough to drive anyone crazy. And the need for constant recruitment. The real bonus was seeing content that few people saw and fighting epic battles. With the WOTLK change, its really not worth it anymore, the tiny stat changes from 25 man gear is soooo not worth putting up with all the bullshit for most people.

And every 25 man raid guild leader knows 1/2 of the guild is gonna jump ship to a 10 man raiding guild the second WOTLK comes out (well the 1/2 thats still there by the time its out, 3/4ths of the guild will have stopped playing by then). Literally the guild officers can see the writing on their wall for their guild. And this is pretty much gonna hit all 25 man raiding guilds, except those maybe that are 4/6 in Sunwell or higher right now or those that are all RL friends (and I doubt many of those exist in the 25 man template... but do in 10 man).

Also I imagine the mass ban waves this week hurt a lot of the 25 man raiding guilds, I know a ton of top guilds that lost a lot of their ultra hardcore players - the guys who would farm 12 hours a day, who supplied all the herbs, etc. Of course we know how they did it lol