[WoW]Wotlk:Raid instances to have 10 and 25 man versions, Death Knight starts at 55

[EmiliaEQ]

Originally Posted by Cuppycake

I ran BRD again (in a full mid-50's group) a couple weeks ago...and unfortunately, I don't think it holds up. It was the first time that a couple of the people in the group had ever seen BRD and they were bored to tears with how long it is and how convoluted and twisted it was. I enjoyed it because of nostalgia.

Just because it's an incredibly well-designed dungeon in the minds of those of us who hyper-analyze dungeon layouts and encounter designs and have played MMO's since UO doesn't mean that it's necessarily a 'fun' dungeon for your average WoW player.

It shows how shitty the average WoW player is ...

All they want is : "Room, Corridor, Room, Corridor, Room, Corridor, Final Boss" in 30mins.
No multiple pathways, Roamers, Repops, Multipulls, Gigantic Size.

WoW = Mc Donalds : easy to locate, 2 mins waiting, 5 mins eating, finished.

[Sharmai]

Originally Posted by EmiliaEQ

It shows how shitty the average WoW player is ...

All they want is : "Room, Corridor, Room, Corridor, Room, Corridor, Final Boss" in 30mins.
No multiple pathways, Roamers, Repops, Multipulls, Gigantic Size.

WoW = Mc Donalds : easy to locate, 2 mins waiting, 5 mins eating, finished.

What is the difference between 1 mob or 200 if you approach them all the same way? I.E. tank grabs all the mobs dps kills all the mobs. Only variation is the occasional sheep.

If multilpe pathways, roamers, repops, multipulls, and gigantic size inlcluded massive amounts of variety and creativity in them I'm all for it. But if it's just 2 hours more of tank n' spank.. then fuck that.

[Wilfan]

Well, WoW is a progression game. Naturally, vast majority wants exp and loot first, "skill"/immersion/story/exploration/... second. If they wouldn't, they'd be playing Planetside, Second Life, Starcraft or FPSes.

I'd also say that even the most addicted "progressionist" would be in love with BRD, if only it dropped guaranteed endgame loot from all bosses (no, that list is a joke compared to UBRS or DM), had 50% less trash and none of that Windsor faggot.

[Twobit Whore]

Parts of BRD definitely had too much trash. It wasn't that bad on the way to emp, but the jail halls had the same packs over and over... and the hall leading to the giant that you did that charred skin quest was just fucking stupid.

[UnchainedAcolyte]

Originally Posted by Dumar

oh my wtf please shutup with the rose colored glasses. this fucking word is used to explain away everything from fucking why the past was 'supposedly' better to global warming.

it's used EVERY TIME someone something in the past is better than current. it's stupid, cliche, and used way.too.often.

"Hey, remember the other day when you asked me what the definition of irony was and I said-"

[Sharmai]

Well lore is great and everything and I love seeing the lore and reading it to. Heck the first time into any instance is always great. So is the 2nd or 3rd. But on the 19th time through I am well burned out on lore and killing that trash mob 0187 is getting on my damn nerves

[Ukerric]

Originally Posted by Creediki

BRD the zone, the layout, and the bosses still stand as one of the best dungeons wow has come out with.

I don't remember in which forum (I think it was wow-europe, but not 100% sure), but I did a tally in a best-of-dungeons thread.

BRD was about 3/4th to the bottom. Yep, nearly the worst dungeon. Barring Gnomeregan and a couple others.

[Plorkyeran]

Originally Posted by dak

Would it really be that hard to randomize instanced dungeon layouts in WoW like Diablo does?

Yes.

[spronk]

Originally Posted by DisgruntledOrangatang

DKs sound really cool, giving a tank a root, lifedrain, Brez, dark pact heals, they sound really great, they sound like a real casting tank. Moreso than prot pallies, with then you just keep holy shield up judge your seal and concecrate when getting aggro. I really can't wait. I am probably going to re-roll DK. Active tanking class. Also it sounds like Dks might stack decently since the DPS and Tank specced classes will be able to benefit from the diseases and they both can lay them on at once.

I wonder though about 25mans now though. It's already pretty much impossible to fit every class/spec into a raid while still maintaining goodness. Now we are adding two-more. I guess less locks/mages/or rogues? (Usually the dps classes we stack more than one of in my raids)

Pre-TBC mages and fury warriors were the DPS kings, everyone laughed at hunters, warlocks, and shadow priests (talking before the patch when they put in TBC talents). Its very, very likely the "kings of DPS" will rotate around a bit again on WOTLK. Shamans will almost definitely get a nerf to chain heal and bloodlust/heroism, who knows what'll happen with the other classes.

DK's will probably be extremely OP for a while, and then slowly get hit with the nerf bat until the population evens out. Its a easy way to keep millions of people sub'd - get them to all try out DKs to 80, run content/gear up, then when everyone and their mother are DKs nerf em so a ton of people reroll again to another class and spend a few months leveling/gearing once more.

and ya the BRD discussion is dumb, Blizzard does not design in a vacuum - they do tons of focus groups, they have the tools to see who spends how much time in what instance (theres a webpage that shows that stuff, remember how like Vandarr is responsible for most player deaths, lol), and the data they collect from the "why did you cancel wow sub" page. Clearly the majority of people prefer small, linear, TBC-style instances. The regular ones will probably get nerfed even more in WOTLK, esp since the heroics will be getting better loot ala MgT.

I love small titty lesbian asian porn and the TV show _The Big Bang Theory_, but I also know I'm in a minority for both of those and don't expect much of either.

[Digits]

Originally Posted by Ukerric

I don't remember in which forum (I think it was wow-europe, but not 100% sure), but I did a tally in a best-of-dungeons thread.

BRD was about 3/4th to the bottom. Yep, nearly the worst dungeon. Barring Gnomeregan and a couple others.

I honestly feel that this is a case of WoW players being too stupid to recognize a good thing right in front of them, or lack the means to appreciate it. As others have mentioned, the big problems with vanilla WoW dungeons was the utter shit loot and excessive trash. Although I feel BRD was designed like a social dungeon, it could still have been fine as an instance presuming it was a level 60 all around. The emperor should have been dropping top notch blues and MC caliber epics (with a realistic drop rate) with a lockout timer on killing him. Now that would have notched up BRD as one of the best dungeon experiences period.

[Kaxmax]

You also have to take into account that the vast, vast majority of BRD pickups never made it past the Lyceum. Hell, I was in plenty that didn't make it past the 7 event.

Honestly, even at 60 the Lyceum was still a hard event if you didn't have the right classes.

[Pyros]

Originally Posted by Kaxmax

You also have to take into account that the vast, vast majority of BRD pickups never made it past the Lyceum. Hell, I was in plenty that didn't make it past the 7 event.

Honestly, even at 60 the Lyceum was still a hard event if you didn't have the right classes.

Or if you had idiots, even with the right classes it was hard if they totally sucked. On the other hand, I remember doing Lyceum with a couple low levels and 2 60, and no AE besides me on my warrior speced arms, and we did lyceum fine, it only requires coordination, have to understand that you're not gonna drink, that you should wait a bit before getting heals out so you don't aggro the whole shit, and never lose sight of your goal(the red retard, then nearest torch then other red retard then next torch then out). It could also be trivialized by a single lvl 60 rogue, even with shitty gear. I soloed the lyceum on my rogue when I still had greens and some strat/scholo blues.

As for the poll putting BRD last, doesn't surprise me much, but the population of wow boards and foh boards is quite different. My guess is first one was probably the one yielding the best loot(UBRS?). When they did the poll for BC instances, besides hillsbrad which I like, every other instance that ended first were actually total shit that gave good loot or were fast to do. Mechanar won iirc.

Anyway, yes BRD wasn't perfect, it was a release dungeon and never got reworked pretty much. But if they did a new BRD with all the stuff they got over the years, such as less trash, better boss mechanics and such, it'd be awesome. Really all they have to do is have one big ass dungeon, with wings inside it. They have to be linked in different places, and that's it. Instead of having 3auchindoun instances or 3coilfang instances, you have one big one, but divided in 3 different "paths". Think of Naxxramas, but 5man size. In naxx you could choose to go one way or the other, and at various points you could change wings(even though most people didn't, but that's cause trash was linked to bosses, in a 5man it wouldn't matter).

[Zehn - Vhex]

Again, BRD looked beautiful. It was how a dungeon should look. How it was populated and itemized was ass. The level range and where it was located made it very inconvenient. And the run back from a wipe was terrible. Most of the design decisions behind BRD were terrible.

If you put TBC encounter design, trash-boss ratio's and itemization into BRD you'd have one goddamn epic dungeon. It would be the 5-man Karazhan.

Anyways...

A lot of the DK's abilities will depend on if they have a cast time. Cast time + tanking = big no no. I am sincerely hoping that a new protadin talent in TBC will allow you to dodge/block/parry while casting.

[Kobalt]

Originally Posted by Fog

Oh, OK, a bad zone, except for the pesky fact that practically everyone but you and that other dude loved it. I've literally never heard anyone complain about the place before. Most of my friends would put it on their top 5 cool zones in WoW.

Everyone I know hates it.

See how useful anecdotes are?

[kaid]

I loved the look of BRD but the problem with it was there was just to many trash mobs. The level progression through the place was pretty bad too stuff had a pretty big spread of level ranges.

While I can admire the artistic flavor of BRD frankly even before TBC I could not name to many people I knew who really enjoyed it that much. People liked black rock spire but black rock depth we usually had to drag people along kicking and screaming to get a full group to plow our way in there.

There is a place for big instances like that and smaller ones like you see in TBC. With their change so all 25 man raids will have 10 man option that would allow them to make the smaller hour long runs kinda like SM and more complex intricate dungeons the raid ones.