[WoW]Wotlk:Raid instances to have 10 and 25 man versions, Death Knight starts at 55

[Kobalt]

Originally Posted by Dumar

deadhorn said it best. it's not about the fucking items that drop

BRD was a bad zone, not because it had horrible loot(yes not everyone is a melee or considers resistance gear good loot), but because dungeons like dm had a epic feeling with fun for people besides those that use immersion in sentences.

BRD felt like something brad would come up with, looks cool and filled with "immersion" but somewhere along the way someone forgot to make the place fun.

The place was just too damn big, at least when aq40 came out blizzard realized they designed the dungeon too large and just had alot of empty hallways.

If had aq had more bug trash would it have felt more like a living breathing city? Yes, but more fun? No

[Fog]

Originally Posted by Kobalt

BRD was a bad zone, not because it had horrible loot(yes not everyone is a melee or considers resistance gear good loot), but because dungeons like dm had a epic feeling with fun for people besides those that use immersion in sentences.

BRD felt like something brad would come up with, looks cool and filled with "immersion" but somewhere along the way someone forgot to make the place fun.

The place was just too damn big, at least when aq40 came out blizzard realized they designed the dungeon too large and just had alot of empty hallways.

If had aq had more bug trash would it have felt more like a living breathing city? Yes, but more fun? No

Oh, OK, a bad zone, except for the pesky fact that practically everyone but you and that other dude loved it. I've literally never heard anyone complain about the place before. Most of my friends would put it on their top 5 cool zones in WoW.

[Chrisb3]

Originally Posted by Dumar

you started playing the first week, and the first time you killed the emp was 06, 2 years later.

i agree that you're a retard, but you're also a very slow retard.

brd is the best designed dungeon in wow. the complete and utter shitfest that is tbc dungeons don't even remotely compare AT ALL.

1hour instances cool! lol maybe you should play a single player game if you have an hour?! omg epiphany!

My point was that I skipped the dungeon, except for the attunments which I did and ported the hell out with the rest of my group. I wasn't slow, I just didn't need to do it.
Did you not read the bit where I said that I had finished MC and maybe even BWL before I did BRD twice with some friends and finished it? Actually I even two manned several dungeons before BRD got finished, it's not like I didn't have the time or friends. I think I even tanked Stratholme as a Priest before I finished BRD.

I agree that it is one of the most awesome PLACES to visit and is pretty epic. In fact that mountain is one of my favorite MMO places.
I just don't like the content that they put in there which is half of what makes a dungeon to me. In a way it is just as bad as the linear TBC dungeons, they have the loot and interesting bosses but not the layout.
I was a healer so I guess I was looking for DM East groups for a trinket rather than BRD.

[Cad]

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

A) HoJ was the best melee trinket until deep Naxx, not just for rogues.
B) The Barman's Shanker was the best dagger until Ragnaros until they changed AP normalization.

Shanker could be gotten solo, so it's not really an issue. And most raiding warriors in the MC/BWL days were prot, there was a token DPS warrior or two around those days but it was rare.

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

C) Even if you weren't a DPS warrior or a rogue, you might still, I don't know...be social and help your guildmates to get these items

Yes I did a lot of angerforge runs to get guildies the HoJ.. not what I'd call "fun".

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

D) There were invaluable FR items to be gotten

I did MC/BWL on my Hunter, and I never had that much FR, by the time we got to ragnaros I had enough giantstalker items that I just wore those and never died a disproportionate amount. The whole FR thing was a little overrated unless you were a warrior or rogue.

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

E) There were numerous really great items other than the highly dominant shanker and HoD items, they didn't all last as long as the HoD but they were raid-level good.

The repair bot schematic was in there, but it was a short distance, it always dropped and you only ever needed it once, so most people just put pugs of 55-57's together and went in and got it. The other gear was absolutely craptastic, I have no idea what you're remembering.

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

F) I can't even remember all the shit, engineering schematics, blacksmithing plans...the list goes on and on, not even counting forge and anvil runs, and running in to acquire patterns, and the people who busted their hump farming DI to get your guild crafters rep, getting people attuned to MC...running IN to MC before that...

Rogues could farm DI solo faster than they could with a group, so, no idea what you were doing in there. People also usually got attuned to MC in pugs, and the run into MC was done in groups of ~15-20.. not much "experience" there.

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

Basically, if you raided and you were not a tool (either an incompetent tool or a tool who didn't help his guildmates) you probably visited BRD many, many times. If you didn't raid and you weren't a tool and you belonged to any of probably most classes in the game you visited BRD many, many times.

Not really but I've seen the jailbreak area more than I've seen any other part. Fuck.

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

Were parts of it still challenging at 60 up to a certain point in gear? You bet.

If by challenging you mean not challenging, then yes.

I understand what you mean about lore, but the bottom line is, BRD was not a "fun" zone for the most part. It was neat to see the first few times, since it was big and it didn't really tell you where to go and having someone along who knew the tricks made it seem like you were really getting away with something, and it was cool. After that, it was a fucking beating because it was so big, there were 4 bajillion trash mobs, the loot was crap and the quests were for mid-50's. LBRS and UBRS weren't much better, but at least the loot in UBRS was decent.

I think you've got your rose-colored glasses on a bit too tightly there.

[Pyros]

Is there any dungeon that's not only fun the first few times then become boring as shit? I mean, you think I enjoyed grinding ANY of the BC dungeons for rep(especially at launch). Did you? Did you enjoy farming ubrs for the 150th time to get the beast's hide or the chromatic carapace? Or any drop from the last boss? Or hell, drakkisath blood?

Let's be honest, every single dungeon sucks once you've done it a few times. BRD however contrary to most, took a decent amount of time to see everything and master it.

As for the loot, I stand by my statement, the loot was good at release. Yeah yeah, 6months later when they redid the loot tables of stratholme and scholomance so half the shit you got weren't fucking greens, THEN BRD loot sucked. Before that, not really, the ilvl was close enough that it didn't make much of a difference at all. The itemization as a whole was total crap anyway, there was NOTHING good ANYWHERE. Remember when you could make a spell dmg set out of dungeon drops? Oh wait, you couldn't, the only spell dmg gear were random drop greens of x Wrath.

It's not about rose colored glasses, it's about putting things into perspective. At release dungeons fucking sucked. You talk of BRD as if it was the only overtrash dungeon. Ever did Scholomance before they nerfed it a few dozen times? Shit took forever from start to finish, and mobs were respawning FAST, and if you wiped near the end there was no way to recover. In BRD, since it's such a big dungeon, you could usually use another way. Once you had the key done, you could go from entrance to top of arena instantly instead of having to go through the big circular zone again.

And as an end statement, comparing loot drops with UBRS is not very fair. Why not compare BRD to naxx loot while you're at it. BRD was lvl 50-54 instance, UBRS was a lvl 60 10(or was it 15 at first?) man dungeon.

[Dumar]

oh my wtf please shutup with the rose colored glasses. this fucking word is used to explain away everything from fucking why the past was 'supposedly' better to global warming.

it's used EVERY TIME someone something in the past is better than current. it's stupid, cliche, and used way.too.often.

too much trash? k sure. everything else? 9-10/10. yes, even loot. you compared loot of a lvl55 instance to a 10man 60 dungeon. duh, wonder which is better!

if you're sitting here telling me that brd is better than tbc dungeons because of the huge ROASE COLORED GLASSEZ ON MAH AHEAD,

get out.

[Lithose]

Shanker could be gotten solo, so it's not really an issue. And most raiding warriors in the MC/BWL days were prot, there was a token DPS warrior or two around those days but it was rare.

Most warriors were 31/5/15 or 31/20, protection was useless back then.

I know he does have rose colored glasses..But I think your too jaded..BRD was actually a dungeon that was so big you could get "lost" in it and actually "stumble" on bosses by accident..Which is just really cool.

Once you learned it, I mean, the dungeon was, in essence "winged"..You could go right to the "loot highway" and have it cleared to emp in 90 minutes, if you cut out the bullshit bosses around the prison and the giant..

The thing that jaded most players though is looking back after you got the UBRS/LBRS loot and later DM loot and realizing that this massive, hard dungeon was dropping gear that was below max level...If BRD had been a level 60 dungeon it would have been a lot better..and this is coming from a fan of the winged dungeons.

[Fog]

Yeah, I don't know what this deal is with "neat the first few times, [but then boring.]" I have yet to meet a dungeon that isn't kinda boring after the first few times.

[Twobit Whore]

Yes, even the vaunted Guk was the same old same old once you had been everywhere.

Undead side, down the hall, under the water, up into the bedroom, past the bats and the skeletons, jump off the edge, into the lord hall.. go right to frenzy room, down the hall and the right for AM, left for hand, straight to the end for lord.

Can envision that shit plain as day 9 years later.

[dak]

Would it really be that hard to randomize instanced dungeon layouts in WoW like Diablo does?

[The Ancient]

Yes! Less designed fights, more trash, please.

[Ellsworth]

Originally Posted by Fog

Oh, OK, a bad zone, except for the pesky fact that practically everyone but you and that other dude loved it. I've literally never heard anyone complain about the place before. Most of my friends would put it on their top 5 cool zones in WoW.

I hate BRD and only go when I had too. [Onyxia/MC attunement, or someone needing that trinket or FR]

[DisgruntledOrangatang]

Alright lets stop talking about BRD in a WOTLK thread now, its been done for at least 5 pages.

Wotlk:

DKs sound really cool, giving a tank a root, lifedrain, Brez, dark pact heals, they sound really great, they sound like a real casting tank. Moreso than prot pallies, with then you just keep holy shield up judge your seal and concecrate when getting aggro. I really can't wait. I am probably going to re-roll DK. Active tanking class. Also it sounds like Dks might stack decently since the DPS and Tank specced classes will be able to benefit from the diseases and they both can lay them on at once.

I wonder though about 25mans now though. It's already pretty much impossible to fit every class/spec into a raid while still maintaining goodness. Now we are adding two-more. I guess less locks/mages/or rogues? (Usually the dps classes we stack more than one of in my raids)

One thing I am worried about though, they will be crushable like druids, but not get additional HP benefit? How much armor to druids get? I am pretty sure they get more armor than 45% too. It sounds like they will be really weak trash tank or even 5man herioc tanks with that kind of mitigation. I hope they aren't too weak in physical tanking that you don't want one of them for a herioc run or even 10man raid. Spell casters is supposed to be their niche, but much like now, while prot pals and bears have their niche, they can also tank anything fine. I hope with DKs it will be the same.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

Alright lets stop talking about BRD in a WOTLK thread now, its been done for at least 5 pages.

No.

Conceded that Shanker was soloable once people figured it out. Our top rogue figured out how and taught every other rogue how to do it. A hunter talking about how overblown FR was in MC is so fucking lol, get some perspective. Yes, every hunter didn't really have to give a shit about FR. Grats! It was still an important farm to most of the rest of us. Even though it was listed, here, and try to remember when these items were available in the game. If you didn't at least have guildies who needed shit from BRD you either didn't have a raid guild or your guildies were retards...or they got it without your help/knowledge.

Immersion is not a four-letter word. When you learned how to work BRD it became a pretty fast run, even to emp, assuming you could clear lyceum (I found this a bit challenging without certain group elements...). Every dungeon gets fairly routine after the first few times. Some remain immersive. The rest just become Disney rides.

For the record, I was sick of BRD well before I got done with it, but that was because I ran it probably more than any other dungeon. I contested this idiotic point that the dungeon was under-utilized (the board does not have enough style tags to emphasize IDIOTIC enough), I don't contest that it had some trash you might learn how to clear, and that you might have to value the immersive quality of the dungeon to enjoy it, and that it was not a veritable loot pinnata, merely a place with some very valuable loot. I don't remember it as a place I want to go back to over and over and over again even now, I'm sick of SFK and I fucking love that zone. It simply is a superior place. I'm sorry if you felt you needed to do a full clear of it one day and went "wow, this sucks," but it is a fine example of a dungeon with many directions to go in depending on what you were after that didn't have to spell out WING A: LEVEL 51; WING B: LEVEL 53, WING C: LEVEL 55.

It's not that I don't understand the design decisions Blizzard made. I simply reserve the right to not enjoy them. The most any TBC dungeon has elicited from me has been "ooh, that looks neat *click*." What a great expansion experience. *yawn* Time to rest up so I can clear some blood elf zone with some big thingamabobs in it with names I suppose I should recognize from some lore somewhere. I tell you what, Sunwell really does feel like you're in some place with blood elves.

[Cuppycake]

I ran BRD again (in a full mid-50's group) a couple weeks ago...and unfortunately, I don't think it holds up. It was the first time that a couple of the people in the group had ever seen BRD and they were bored to tears with how long it is and how convoluted and twisted it was. I enjoyed it because of nostalgia.

Just because it's an incredibly well-designed dungeon in the minds of those of us who hyper-analyze dungeon layouts and encounter designs and have played MMO's since UO doesn't mean that it's necessarily a 'fun' dungeon for your average WoW player.