WOW, Season 4. Arena or GTFO

[Makata]

Originally Posted by Horse

So it's really, really fun?

Yes. I've been pm'ing quinloe about it for a year but he refuses to service me.

Healers are not overpowered at all, except druids IN 2V2. Bottomline. Saying it should be balanced towards DPS because games should go faster is fucking asinine when you consider what decent drain teams can pull off (again focused on druids).

Mediocre, piss-poor druids are insanely overpowered IN 2V2 and do not make mediocre teams.

Fixed.

I also laugh at how you somehow don't lump priests in there. They might not be AS strong as druids in 2v2 but they are certainly miles ahead of the other 2 and actually can be played in the other 2 brackets.

Originally Posted by Zerai

Warrior is not the most powerful pvp class. As can be seen pretty obviously by looking at the top arena teams. War/dru is powerful..yes..but why isn't war/x up there as well as often? Rogues and Warlocks are definately more powerful. Yes, warrior's have advantages against those 2 classes, a good warlock still rapes a warrior and a good rogue can do significant damage to a warrior, what about all the other classes they don't have advantages against...vs those 2 classes just weak(er) against 1.

Pairability with any other class for 2v2 is not what defines the best pvp class. They are the best pvp class because they are very useful in every bracket, have a spec that gives them every pvp tool they could reasonably ask for, and are able to do their job exceedingly well regardless of the competition. The only actual weakness of warriors is polymorph as every other cc they can either remove or gives them rage. They also have a positive feedback on their damage which causes them to deal even more damage as their damage goes up. They have the absolutely best pvp debuff in the game (would and aimed shot don't even come close) with a veritable cornucopia of tools to use to make sure they do what they're supposed to.

The druid is the best class to pair with in 2v2's and is the most survivable class in 1vX scenarios but it is definitely not the "best" pvp class. An even simpler definition is this: if you were to take someone of perfect skill with 0ms latency with an encyclopedic knowledge of every class and perfect reflexes and let him play any class, for which class would that person have the most impact on the average arena team or the average battleground. The answer is unquestionably Warrior.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Zerai

Warrior is not the most powerful pvp class. As can be seen pretty obviously by looking at the top arena teams. War/dru is powerful..yes..but why isn't war/x up there as well as often? Rogues and Warlocks are definately more powerful. Yes, warrior's have advantages against those 2 classes, a good warlock still rapes a warrior and a good rogue can do significant damage to a warrior, what about all the other classes they don't have advantages against...vs those 2 classes just weak(er) against 1.

when considering the top 6 builds in 2v2:

25% warrior + druid
13% rogue + druid
11% rogue + mage
9% warrior + shaman
7% rogue + priest
7% warlock + druid

druid = 45%
warrior = 33%
rogue = 31%
mage = 11%
shaman = 9%
warlock = 7%
priest = 7%
paladin = na
hunter = na


I disagree that a "good warlock rapes a warrior."

Rogues and Warlocks are just hyper strong right now to the point that they can bring along a larger variety of classes because their CC defends weaker classes.

So you've got a point there, but if I was going to pick a class for being, still, ridiculously out of tune I'd go with warrior and their stuns, even over what druids can do.

At least druids have to push buttons. Warriors are strong based on procs and dice rolls.

[Zerai]

Originally Posted by Horse

when considering the top 6 builds in 2v2:

25% warrior + druid
13% rogue + druid
11% rogue + mage
9% warrior + shaman
7% rogue + priest
7% warlock + druid

druid = 45%
warrior = 33%
rogue = 31%
mage = 11%
shaman = 9%
warlock = 7%
priest = 7%
paladin = na
hunter = na


I disagree that a "good warlock rapes a warrior."

Rogues and Warlocks are just hyper strong right now to the point that they can bring along a larger variety of classes because their CC defends weaker classes.

So you've got a point there, but if I was going to pick a class for being, still, ridiculously out of tune I'd go with warrior and their stuns, even over what druids can do.

At least druids have to push buttons. Warriors are strong based on procs and dice rolls.

You know how shitty it is being good based on dice rolls? It's fucking annoying. That one win because I got a crit, mace stun and then crit again is nice..but you forgot the other 54789354 fights where the dice rolled wrong and nothing happened.

A warlock and warrior fight...and unless I get really lucky with crits, I'll die to dots before I kill them. They have a fuckload of hp. Add in something like a voidwalker and things aren't going well. The only reason a warrior can win is because they get heals from someone else...well..someone else can give the warlocks heals too. Oh and they get healed for more..and I take more damage (because fighting out of beserker stance, I can't pummel or intercept or break fears). But I'll be honest, warrior does scale better with a healer than other classes. But on their own, they lose to most everything.

Which is why that chart is stupid. Warrior druid is the best because it's almost as good as warlock/druid, it just happens to beat warlock/druid as well. So we have the best fotm...and are in only one other combo...

I see a lot of rogue druids and rogue priests...but how come you see very little warrior priest? That's what I play and it's not easymode. Which brings it to..warrior has very specific guidelines on being better. We can't defend who we play with (intervene woo), so thats why druid is great because they survive on their own and have the CC to boot.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Makata

In 2v2s...

I also laugh at how you somehow don't lump priests in there. They might not be AS strong as druids in 2v2 but they are certainly miles ahead of the other 2 and actually can be played in the other 2 brackets.

You can't say priests are OP in 2v2 when any team w/ druid will destroy the priest longevitywise. With any sort of melee on a priest we're playing GCD tag and forced to use instants which are sub par at best. UD priests being an exception to all of this, of course, but not by much. There are tools that we can use but any decent team will outlast or at least have a fair shot to shut the priest down entirely, not so with paladin and druid. Shaman simply didn't scale enough to the damage increase.


And so Shaman and Paladin being weak does not mean priests are overpowered. Priests are also losing an edge with the dispel changes to mages and warlocks, which is not something that needed flattening at all, really.


You're going off on a tangent, the other brackets have no bearing on how good a class is in 2v2: I guess the point would be that if something is really good in bracket A its ok for them to be bad in B and C? 3v3 is a wildcard as well because you can go infinity / drain mode with 2 healers + pretty much any dps, or bring any healer with 2 dps.

Druids Paladins and Priests are fine in 5s. Shaman healing is passable but obviously needs work, again. So I'm not sure about them, they have no real burst prevention unlike all the rest.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Zerai

You know how shitty it is being good based on dice rolls? It's fucking annoying. That one win because I got a crit, mace stun and then crit again is nice..but you forgot the other 54789354 fights where the dice rolled wrong and nothing happened.

One of my partners is a warrior and it just doesn't happen that way. I watched him stun lock a druid from 100% -> 0% the other day, which was the rare. The common is he gets strings of procs ranging from 1 or 2 here and there to 5 in a row to the point that the target is immune. Him on the warlock and also rapidly demolishing warlock pets which nobody can do as fast, keeps the warlock pressure from locking down his healer.

A warlock and warrior fight...and unless I get really lucky with crits, I'll die to dots before I kill them. They have a fuckload of hp. Add in something like a voidwalker and things aren't going well. The only reason a warrior can win is because they get heals from someone else...well..someone else can give the warlocks heals too. Oh and they get healed for more..and I take more damage (because fighting out of beserker stance, I can't pummel or intercept or break fears). But I'll be honest, warrior does scale better with a healer than other classes. But on their own, they lose to most everything.

Yes, on their own. The reason you see more variety with rogue partners is that rogues can defend much better than a warrior and also require less cleansing/dispelling, which is crucial for - say - a priest to make sure the warrior isn't rooted or snared so they can be doing dps or protecting you.

Which is why that chart is stupid. Warrior druid is the best because it's almost as good as warlock/druid, it just happens to beat warlock/druid as well. So we have the best fotm...and are in only one other combo...

It's representative of who has gotten how far with whom. To put it in perspective, if you could attain some rank with a different class combo it is a lot better than not being able to.

Of course it can't be used to show viability. You might only have 1 team build doing really well that takes some skill to pull off (or patience, with hunter druid priest or draining). So of course shadowpriest rogue is going to be up there more, what priest wouldn't want to pew pew and actually be able to win? Not possible with a warrior.

I see a lot of rogue druids and rogue priests...but how come you see very little warrior priest? That's what I play and it's not easymode. Which brings it to..warrior has very specific guidelines on being better. We can't defend who we play with (intervene woo), so thats why druid is great because they survive on their own and have the CC to boot.

War priest has fallen off since the stoneform and fear ward changes. dwarf priest and warrior raped in season 1 due to that.

On top of that the melee dps and the amount of CC has only gone up. Rogues are ridiculous right now, and so magnify that times over 9,000 against a priest.

Any sort of % heal debuff has a really ridiculous curve when you offset what happens to your healing per sec (which hardly goes up) against the dps which goes up more and more.

Warriors getting assisted don't have the oh shit buttons that rogues do, and so non-druids suffer with a warrior, on average.

Of course there's also all sorts of randomness in terms of who you fight, which is why those %s matter. Now's a bad time to be weak against druids, warriors, locks and rogues.

[Zerai]

But it still comes down that the druid enables the warrior more than the inverse. You nerf druids in 2s and you'll see warriors drop off...since that list is mostly dominated by the war/dru combo.

edit: also doesn't help that the warriors greatest arch nemisis...is one of the weakest classes. The frost mage. So because the frost mage has so many other counters, you don't face them as much to bring the warrior down more.

[spronk]

since you're a fat ugly smelly bald pencil-dick loser with no friends makata, why not at least split your characters into 4 accounts and that way you can quad-box and win-trade in 2s and have all your characters at 2200 ratings, 5/5 s4, and have a huge epeen.

[Makata]

Originally Posted by Horse

You can't say priests are OP in 2v2 when any team w/ druid will destroy the priest longevitywise .. And so Shaman and Paladin being weak does not mean priests are overpowered.

I want you to think long and hard about these 2 sentences you just wrote. Think about it a while. Give up?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Postulate A: Druid > Priest
Postulate B: Priest > Shaman, Priest > Paladin
Postulate C: {A} means priests are not op and druids are.
Postulate D: {B} does not mean priests are op or that shamans and paladins are not op.

You have failed at logic.

You're going off on a tangent, the other brackets have no bearing on how good a class is in 2v2: I guess the point would be that if something is really good in bracket A its ok for them to be bad in B and C?

No. The usual argument is since they are shit in 5's it's okay to be OP in 2's. I don't buy that personally but the flip side is that if you examine the mechanics of the class, shit in 5's and op in 2's is an obvious result. The only way to make druids balanced in both is a complete overhaul of the class. HoTs are too good in 2's, too shitty in 5's. Travel Form is too good in 2's, but not good enough in 5's, etc.

Druids...are fine in 5s.

I lol'ed.

Originally Posted by Zerai

But it still comes down that the druid enables the warrior more than the inverse.

Think about this statement and you'll see how it's fucking proof how warriors are better. It isn't because of the DRUID that the warrior is op, it's because of what the druid does for the WARRIOR class. Constant heals make warriors unstoppable killing machines. Warriors are like nuclear silos in starcraft and druids are the ghosts. By themselves, the silos don't do shit and by themselves the ghosts are good. Ghosts become a little better when you have a silo but silos become extremely fucking better when you have a ghost. Yet which is the one destroying your entire drone population in 1 shot? The silo. The druid may enable the warrior but that just means it's the warrior that's doing all the work. The other 3 healers could enable warriors just as easily if they were never attacked. The fact that druids have the mobility (in 2v2 alone) to provide what the warrior needs doesn't mean it's the druid; he just happens to fit the niche the warrior needs to be overpowered.

Having class B depend on class A doesn't mean class A is better. In a 2v2 environment you have spots for 2 characters so you can take for granted the fact that both A and B will be there.

[Deris]

Personally Makata,

I think you're a fucking moron and have no clue what real Arena is if you think Druids are shit in 5's. Some of the most dominant teams have druids on them, its just the fact that 99.99999% of all druids are fucking TERRIBLE. Have no clue how to play 5's. There are maybe 6? Druids on all of BG5 that I'd even consider "good players". They do dominate in 5's, a healer that can't be counterspelled, that is immune to CC, has a GIANT instant heal, and can Cyclone a Warrior or Paladin?

Paladins are only good in 5's because teams below 2200 just have no clue what to do, and are idiots, and can't figure out how to lock-out a Paladin long enough to kill someone. It's easy, you just have to actually coordinate CC/Burst/MD/CS/SS-Kick and its a 4-5 match almost instantly.

[DiscW]

The only reason a warrior can win is because they get heals from someone else...well..someone else can give the warlocks heals too. Oh and they get healed for more.

There's this thing called mortal strike you should try out.

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by spronk

since you're a fat ugly smelly bald pencil-dick loser with no friends makata, why not at least split your characters into 4 accounts and that way you can quad-box and win-trade in 2s and have all your characters at 2200 ratings, 5/5 s4, and have a huge epeen.

cause he is also cheap.

[Kaxmax]

Originally Posted by Makata

You can also note that while I have a rogue, I refuse to pvp with it as shadowstep looks to be about as fun as being raped by a man to me.

How can you not like playing as a shadowstep build? I've been playing a rogue since release, it's by far the most fun rogue PVP build we've had in my opinion. So much control & mobility.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Deris

Personally Makata,

I think you're a fucking moron and have no clue what real Arena is if you think Druids are shit in 5's. Some of the most dominant teams have druids on them, its just the fact that 99.99999% of all druids are fucking TERRIBLE. Have no clue how to play 5's. There are maybe 6? Druids on all of BG5 that I'd even consider "good players". They do dominate in 5's, a healer that can't be counterspelled, that is immune to CC, has a GIANT instant heal, and can Cyclone a Warrior or Paladin?

Paladins are only good in 5's because teams below 2200 just have no clue what to do, and are idiots, and can't figure out how to lock-out a Paladin long enough to kill someone. It's easy, you just have to actually coordinate CC/Burst/MD/CS/SS-Kick and its a 4-5 match almost instantly.

Plus why bother doing 5's as a druid when you can faceroll your way to 2200 in 2's?

[Zerai]

Originally Posted by Makata

I lol'ed.

Think about this statement and you'll see how it's fucking proof how warriors are better. It isn't because of the DRUID that the warrior is op, it's because of what the druid does for the WARRIOR class. Constant heals make warriors unstoppable killing machines. Warriors are like nuclear silos in starcraft and druids are the ghosts. By themselves, the silos don't do shit and by themselves the ghosts are good. Ghosts become a little better when you have a silo but silos become extremely fucking better when you have a ghost. Yet which is the one destroying your entire drone population in 1 shot? The silo. The druid may enable the warrior but that just means it's the warrior that's doing all the work. The other 3 healers could enable warriors just as easily if they were never attacked. The fact that druids have the mobility (in 2v2 alone) to provide what the warrior needs doesn't mean it's the druid; he just happens to fit the niche the warrior needs to be overpowered.

Having class B depend on class A doesn't mean class A is better. In a 2v2 environment you have spots for 2 characters so you can take for granted the fact that both A and B will be there.

So warriors are...overpowered with only druids...and so..its the warrior...wait...

No dude, you just agreed with me. In your roundabout retarded way of course. Druids enable warriors to be awesome. The other healing classes enable the warrior to be good. As good as other classes such as rogues, warlocks, hunters, whatever..except mages that is...cause they kill warriors but die to everyone else.... But with the druid..they are overpowered.

It's because warriors with an unkillable healer is a god. It's always been that way and probably will never change. As a result, warrior's without support are pretty gimp and will lose to pretty much any class. Warlocks and Rogues we have some advantages, but a well played of either class can shut us down. It's amazing sometimes. A lot of rogues go toe to toe with me..and it just doesn't work for them. But I've had some really smart ones kite me and just CC me so bad while doing constant damage to me with dots that I lose..slowly..but I lose.

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Zerai

A lot of rogues go toe to toe with me..and it just doesn't work for them. But I've had some really smart ones kite me and just CC me so bad while doing constant damage to me with dots that I lose..slowly..but I lose.

Yeah, we need to have a fucking talk about how impossible it is to peel a rogue off of anyone with 30% crip, 2 sprints, Cloak of Skill, and now shadowstep. You think it's hard to get a warrior off your nuts.

Hamstring is 50%, Wing Clip is 40% and Crip is 30% and warriors are the ones that get bitched about. I just don't get it. There's a rogue on a full 75% of the 2's teams out there and that's not a fucking problem? The reason that Warrior and Druid is the primary combo is because a warrior can NOT get a rogue off of any other healer. The druid enables the escape. It's really not warriors fault that you can't get a rogue off of a priest, shaman, or paladin. That's shitty balance. It's not really a problem with warriors, there's a small problem with druids, but the real problem is that when half of the teams you face every night have a rogue that is going straight for your fucking healer and you WILL NOT get him off of that healer until he's dead. Then you can see why druids had the massive rise to power that they did. It had nothing to do with how awesome druids are and everything to do with how bullshit rogues are with all the other healers that were already 70, before everyone and their fucking brother rolled up a druid...to deal with the fucking rogues.