WOW, Season 4. Arena or GTFO

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

People who are playing MMO's primarily to impress others really need to have a word with themselves. And, let's face it, it's a great deal harder to appear leet in WoW due to the fact every player with a pulse is loaded up with purples of varying levels.

Well, thats exactly it.."Loading" people up with purples, without distinguishing "status" symbols is not really a great thing.

And its not "primarily" to impress others..I doubt if anyone sets out to impress people, but that small ego boost someone feels when they get their new, unique weapon and run around with it before anyone else, or when they can kill a mob much faster then others ect ect is an important part of the game.

Its not the over-riding concept, and its not "all" that it takes to make a healthy game, in my opinion, but ignoring it is not a good thing. People are creatures of ego, thats not a terrible thing, it just is what it is.

[Arbitrary]

Your PvPeen shouldn't be gear based anyway. When I was into MtG I didn't care if Timmy blew a thousand dollars of Mommy and Daddy's money on cards because he still wasn't any good. Gear advantage is not a component in competitive FPS, RTS, and fighting games, and it shouldn't mean shit in WoW PvP either.

[The Ancient]

Originally Posted by Arbitrary

Gear advantage is not a component in competitive FPS, RTS, and fighting games, and it shouldn't mean shit in WoW PvP either.

God damn, not this again. MMORPG RPG RPG RPG Mother fucking RPG.

[Arbitrary]

You cannot add PvP to an RPG and avoid connections to other PvP games.

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by Arbitrary

Your PvPeen shouldn't be gear based anyway. When I was into MtG I didn't care if Timmy blew a thousand dollars of Mommy and Daddy's money on cards because he still wasn't any good. Gear advantage is not a component in competitive FPS, RTS, and fighting games, and it shouldn't mean shit in WoW PvP either.

You might have a point there, but those games don't have elements which rely on gear to perform, they also aren't "continuous" and "progression" based. MMO's rely on continued play. While the games you mention are small instances of games that begin and end with a winner and a loser (except a few FPSmmo, but we all know how awesome they do.), they are persistent. When you win in an FPS, you log out, there isn't another "element" to that game, you got your pat on the back with the win screen, thats it.

When you win in the arena, you go back to the world..In that world, the "win" lasts 5 seconds, about the same time frame that you smiled when you were done kicking ass in CS, but then you have to deal with a character that has not changed or grown at all in a persistent world.

You could take gear away as a factor in other facets, I suppose, but would that be a "fun" MMO? It could be, with a more sandbox design, but thats not WoW's design. WoW is a game based around character growth, if your character did not improve as you defeated obstacles then the game would "broken" .

I don't disagree that games can be fun without gear disparities, but it really depends on the basis of the MMO, wow is not based in that "genre" of MMO, so, really, it doesn't work.

[Ravensign]

Originally Posted by Arbitrary

Your PvPeen shouldn't be gear based anyway. When I was into MtG I didn't care if Timmy blew a thousand dollars of Mommy and Daddy's money on cards because he still wasn't any good. Gear advantage is not a component in competitive FPS, RTS, and fighting games, and it shouldn't mean shit in WoW PvP either.

But that kid with the uber deck did have an advantage it just wasn't enough to guarantee success 100% of the time. An advantage is one thing, such a huge disparity is the problem.

I think we all agree its ok for gear to give some advantages, but you shouldn't be able to just curbstomp people on mental cruise control sheerly from gear.

My biggest problem with the changes are that for a year now, people have played, so that they may earn points, so that they may purchase shit. Once the shit to purchase dries up, the players are going to stop queuing, which is going to shrink the entire arena spiel and start to snowball and implode. Maybe.

Blizz should not be surprised if people stop queueing once their impetus is removed. The people getting 2000+ are doing so in a system with a healthy population of 10 game a weekers.

[The Ancient]

Originally Posted by Arbitrary

You cannot add PvP to an RPG and avoid connections to other PvP games.

I sure as hell can when the other games aren't RPGs. Why don't you instead look at a different Role Playing game that allows PvP and tell me if the playing field is all level.

I don't give a shit if Grass beats Water type, my level 99 Blastoise is going to mop the floor with your lvl 9 Bulbasaur, no matter how strategic you play him.

[Kreugen]

And back to band-aid fixes, how about a goddamn cooldown on how often you get matched up against the same team to stop point trading? Yeah, longer queues, boo hoo, stop playing at 4 fucking am.

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Lithose

I have brought three characters to above 1700, its been frustrating on some nights, yes, but I have only once played more then 30 games a week (Mostly it is exactly 10, because between work and family, getting more in is not possible) and have never encountered the numbers of re-rolls and point sellers you seem to be specifying.

50%? Come on, how are you expecting any person who had gotten above 1800 to even believe numbers like that, exaggeration is not the proper tool to change people's opinions. To be frank, there just aren't that many players who can 4 man 1850+ to have that 50% number.

I agree, its frustrating getting rocked by 4 s3 2300 Glads on my alt that I just fought on my main an hour ago, but its definitely not super-common, you probably just remember it a lot more.

Again, read Clug's post, you fucking mouthbreathers. I didn't bring it up. He's on Cyclone as well, hit 2k, and now sees the same shit that I'm talking about.

My BG is a fucking cesspool of point selling and illegitimate activity. Yours isn't? Congrats, happy you can get 1800 with your nuts tied behind your back. But we're not talking about that, now are we?

[Arbitrary]

Originally Posted by Ravensign

But that kid with the uber deck did have an advantage it just wasn't enough to guarantee success 100% of the time. An advantage is one thing, such a huge disparity is the problem.

No, he did not have an advantage. No matter how much money he spends he can still only bring 75 cards to the table that are legal for the format we are playing.

[Ravensign]

Well, deferring to the precise mechanics of winning and losing in MTG, the principle still stands and we are agreeing that gear (or cards) shouldn't dominate so massively as to remove skill or any other factor from the equation. At least I think we are both saying that.

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

Again, read Clug's post, you fucking mouthbreathers. I didn't bring it up. He's on Cyclone as well, hit 2k, and now sees the same shit that I'm talking about.

My BG is a fucking cesspool of point selling and illegitimate activity. Yours isn't? Congrats, happy you can get 1800 with your nuts tied behind your back. But we're not talking about that, now are we?

Hmm, So two or three people on a message board can't be exaggerating, right? How about I go point to the dozens of post on EJ, that I know you love, saying its not a problem at all, does the exaggerations that come from there make my argument more factually based? Of course not, retard.

No, he did not have an advantage. No matter how much money he spends he can still only bring 75 cards to the table that are legal for the format we are playing.

Really, so the kid with 4 Icy's, black lotus and every rare, stupid power combo that cost hundreds of dollars did not have an advantage over the kid who could only afford a few packs a week? Really?

[Xurlitil]

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

Back when I actually gave a shit, we'd do 2 or 3 days a week of 15-20 games. Capped out about 1787 near the end of S2 and that's as good as it got. Season 3 has been a complete fucking abomination with us basically using it as a season to gear up new toons, and hovering at 1500 while we do it. The sheer amount of reroll teams is simply astonishing. You would fucking shit bricks if you saw this crap day in and day out.

Now I don't care so much. We play what we play until we get pissed off that the fucking Merc Gladiators on my server are rolling YET another fucking team to steamroll scrubs with. I've been on the recieving end of it, don't even try to say it doesn't happen. Ask them about it and it's always "LOL, trying out new comp" Yeah, uh huh.

Everyone had to start somewhere, including those currently at the top, the problem is you never got much farther than the starting line why, I don't know, maybe it's your druid partners gear which is absolutely fucking awful (1100 healing? come on), tell him to put some goddamn effort into gearing up.

I started right before mid s2, much like yourself, with quest blues and a tier1 blacksmithing axe, and yeah, early on its a fucking challenge and a half to rank up to middle of the road (1850), but I made it, and along the way I met other people in the same situation as me, tried out different teams, strategies and improved my gear as well as my teammates gear.

Of course I wish I had started at the beginning of season1, saw a video a while ago from that period where a 2000+ rated team had their warr wielding a fucking sonic spear and doing thousands of dmg a hit due to no one having resil at that point.

My point is, if you put as much effort into improving you and your teammates skills/communication/gear as you put into your bitching about the system you would probably get somewhere instead of making yourself look like a scrub.

[Draegan]

An idea on stopping team resetting would be to penalize your points for X amount of weeks after reforming, or increase the amount of game you need to play for a week for X amount of weeks.

These penalties would disappear as time goes on so if you reform once and you get penalized, then if you reform 2 months later the penalty drops.

[Izuldan]

Originally Posted by Lithose

So your saying if we have a bad weak my character becomes weaker?

My set up in 3's is really weak against PMR, which happens to be the most prevalent 3v3 team set up. We only win when we are better then the other players, if its even, we commonly lose. If we go ten games against good PMR teams, its entirely possible we will drop below 2k. So, what? Now I can't equip my shoulders because I had a bad week?

What's wrong with that? If you are having a bad week, that means you are losing to better teams. Guess what....if you are losing when teams are "even", then you aren't really even are you? If gear is the same, then your strats are worse. So why do you get to equip the same gear as teams that beat you?

If you have a bad week, yes, your character gets weaker because you can't equip say your shoulder item......guess what? If you have a good week, you get to equip it again! Is the problem that is sounds too logical? You don't even have to spend points to buy the shoulders again. All you have to do is show that you are worthy of equipping the item. This goes back to the original format for battlegrounds and rankings, which worked well until people complained left and right that they couldn't get access to the best items without playing day and night....so they eased the restrictions (hit rank 14, get your shit, keep it forever), then they eased it further (removed ranking system, moved to currency system), and VOILA! Hello Welfare epics.

If they want to keep any semblance of accomplishment for arenas, then they need to hardcode the ratings requirements. Lose your rating, lose your item. If you want to be the top of the heap with the best items, then prove you are worthy, and maintain your ranking. If you don't want to put the time and effort in to being the best, you can always go back to AFKing in AV for your gear, which while not as good, is still purple!!!!