WOW, Season 4. Arena or GTFO

[Larion]

What has this forum come to that fucking ´05ers are shitting ´07ers for being "new".

I don't even remember the join date i have with this account tbh.

edit: wtf 03!
I had an account before too i am so much senior member omg... to bad someone killed it because i was posting the zone reset sploit on these very forums back during luclin times.


P.S. Am i cool now?!

[Dumar]

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

Because that would be fucking logical.

If we wanted logic, we wouldn't have fucking rickshaw rocks. Or a LFG tool that doesn't work. Instead, we need convoluted, half assed workarounds to everything that just make it more difficult to engage in exploitative behavior instead of eliminating it.

It's basically like if you had a situation where if you jumped 3 times consecutively, you could fly, and they just fixed it so you had to jump 5 times, but could still fly.

yup. i've said it a million times. they've designed themselves into a fucking closet. the systems they've put into wow are HORRIBLE, with arena being probably the worst of them.

[Agraza]

This whole thing started out as a way to get after rogues/warriors in PvE from scrubbing for weapons through season 1 and 2, as if they were harming anyone. I'm all for the point selling being curtailed, but the ratings are retarded. Rating selling didn't even exist before S3 because it didn't matter, or rather rating and point selling co-existed because it didn't matter.

The problem had always been the PvE side of things being so RNG dependent that arena was a more sane choice (prompting 100% token loot debates). Less gay in raids = less raiders scrubbing for points. Fix things with a positive. Or you could work to alienate and embitter your customers by fixing things with a negative, aka nerf. Blizzard has chosen to half-ass both ends of the argument by providing moderate token looting through the sunwell loot exchange+T6 molds, and slapping varying ratings on even more PvP equipment. Loot exchange and set molds = good. Additional ratings = bad.

The argument against token loot and larger quantity of drops has generally been that people would go through content too fast. "People" in this situation is a miniscule, vocal fraction of WoW's subscribers that are good at the game. Scrubs will still wipe so often with exceptional gear that they'll take eons to get there, and pros will blast through shit with blues on. I mean, these tools still can't pug a nerfed Gruul in S3 gear. They're fucking hopeless, it doesn't matter.

Some alternatives they have also half-assed: segregated loot tables that guarantee a wanted item like a weapon, relying more heavily on sockets and enchanting to specialize equipment between roles to cut down on the class/spec specific clutter in the loot tables. There's no reason that between these two mechanics and the loot exchange vendor that they can't completely fix loot acquisition overnight, and by fix I mean destroy the eminence of the RNG.

I've got an older account too Larion, but I can't figure out the password and don't care that much to try (Zoran). I got lambasted during my original few posts for the 05/05 crap. I believe I was discussing the fucked up threat mechanics of EQ2 and all the WoWfags came in saying "just use sunder armor durrrr stupid 05/05". Much fun was had.

[Fadaar]

Really not too fond of these changes as a holy paladin, especially the honor gear.

[Grizzlebeard]

Originally Posted by Xequecal

I dunno about S4, but S3 is only excellent for PvE if you're a melee DPS class. S3 healing gear is worse than Kara shit, and S3 caster gear has almost no spell hit and a lot of useless PvE stats beyond resil like spell penetration on it.

Yeah, whenever I see discussions about PvP gear I switch off as it usually equates to rogues and warriors belly-aching. PvP caster gear other than one set of bracers is a fucking pathetic joke. Still, what can you expect from a game geared around melee.

[Esmo]

Originally Posted by Xequecal

No, the problem is it become possible for a person to permanently exclude himself from PvP on a character. If you tank down to ~1200, for whatever reason, you're done with PvP on that char. No team will take you, they don't want to carry you all the way up from there.

Then make it so you can reset your PR rating after not engaging in arenas for some period of time like a few weeks or a month. It won't stop point selling but it will sure as hell slow it down and it will allow someone who totally gimped their PR to reset it after a period of time (and grind some honor to actually get some gear while waiting).

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by Tullaeniel

Pretty funny been playing MMO's that long and you still can't spot the faulty design that is arenas? In that case not only are you a fucking 07'er, you are a goddamn fool as well.

Asshole, lets think really clearly about this. Its a competitive ladder system, in the final stages of an expansion, that has worked the same way for the past 14 months. What dynamic changes do you think they can institute without re-writing a huge amount of code that will allow for a more perfect system, without completely altering the way the system currently works. I have played MMO's long enough to realize that a fix here is complicated and can affect dozens of other systems, so nonconstructive whining, complete with dramatic and stupid comparisons so other companies, probably isn't that great for me, but hey, whatever floats your boat. However, to humor you, lets give this a shot, shall we, Junior?

1.) Maybe you want it to be so teams who have shoulders automatically get placed in a higher bracket?

What about people who earned shoulders in 5v5, and are playing 2v2, but the class comp in the new bracket is much, much worse.

2.) Don't reset personal rating and use that for matching?

No fluidity between teams? That sounds awesome for people who play competitively in the upper brackets. I mean, having a new 1500 rated 5v5 come in with 5 2300 rated players and beat you for 25 points sounds incredible and will be sure to make someone's night. Especially if their loss is only worth 5 or so.

3.) Get rid of team ratings.

See above, except add in a decent PvPer from a 3v3 that serves as a ringer in 5v5 to drop the "average" personal down about 250 points so the 2200+ team climbs almost for free, yeah, awesome right?

4.) Re-write the system to encourage more competitive play at the upper end, which requires continued membership in a team, thus preventing smurfing by forcing a player to stay on team.

See, to me, this is the only logical solution. Unfortunately, something like this won't happen at the end of an expansion development cycle, because, again, your not going to have majore re-writes to code and mechanics.

What your going to have is small, band aid fixes that try to alleviate the problem. The "Problem" now being that people can earn something without even pushing themselves, which is terrible game design, we can all look back over countless MMO's to find out what happens to games that go down that path.

There is also, as you so eloquently mentioned, selling teams and point traders. Selling will become slightly more difficult and point trading will become a little harder, too, but your right, this won't eliminate them. However, guess what?

Point sellers are not such a massive, over-encompassing problem that they subgect "new" arena teams to constant beatings, they just aren't.

Win traders, while they suck, again, are a small portion of the overall-base.

Both of these people will now have a more difficult time doing what they are doing..Have they written a magical code preventing continued matches if a team faces each other more then twice? No, but considering the next biggest whine of the masses, like you, is que times, somehow I don't think something that would likely increase those is going to come across as awesome.

You need a system that offers incentives for competition, which pretty much means you need a system that is voluntarily more risky after a certain point and requires continued membership within the system. However, since the rewards this expansion have been set, used and known for some time, that kind of change will not happen yet.

But hey, band aid fixes to a ladder system do sound a lot like Alchemy not working and being denied for a year, right?

Originally Posted by Vorph

UO? UO?! Shit, son, I was ownin' bitches in LP-MUD back in '90.


Ok, fuck that, I give up. How do you even write like that much of a retard without smacking yourself upside the head?

Play on words, retarded response in turn for another retarded response..Like as in, to your response, I would post "I rocked D&D 1st edition bitch" (see what I did there? I changed genre's like a moron, much like you did when you referenced a MUD, because, you know, a MUD is not an MMO), because you chose to use the same type of response, but obviously, the joke has flown over your head, so..

Go fuck yourself for entering into a stupid argument that was started based on a join date tag, as if it were a symbol of knowledge and awesomeness. The start of this argument and my response obviously was tailored to encourage more debate, because we must maintain the cool factor of how long we have been posting on an internet, MMO-based message board, right?

I was hoping to make the response dumb enough that only a true fucking idiot would pursue it or respond to it, but wow, I guess I shouldn't have been surprised.

(Incoming debate on how MMO means massive multiplayer online and a MUD was a multiplayer type of game just without graphics so they are essentially the same! This argument will ignore the facets of the current genre that have become synonymous with MMO's and take this conversation to..a new low. So, before you start, Vorph, you win here, please just stop your subtle mental attack before it begins, I can feel the stupid crawling into my head.)

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by Agraza

The problem had always been the PvE side of things being so RNG dependent that arena was a more sane choice (prompting 100% token loot debates). Less gay in raids = less raiders scrubbing for points. Fix things with a positive. Or you could work to alienate and embitter your customers by fixing things with a negative, aka nerf. Blizzard has chosen to half-ass both ends of the argument by providing moderate token looting through the sunwell loot exchange+T6 molds, and slapping varying ratings on even more PvP equipment. Loot exchange and set molds = good. Additional ratings = bad.

I agree, one of the big problems is the RNG, however, its also the disparity between Ilvl. Weapons for s3 are 146, while non-end boss t6 weapons are 141, meaning the s3 weapons, even with resilience weighting them down, are simply better then anything that doesn't drop off Archimonde or Illidan.

I guess they thought this would make PvP weapons superior in PvP, without ever thinking that in most cases, PvP weapons would be superior in PvE. It really annoys me every time I look around my raid and see 5-6 casters with s3 weapons because Archimonde had dropped 2 swords for us and the only other t6 caster weapon is not as good because its 141.

Also the fact that all PvP gear has near perfect stat distribution, with 4-5 stats never going above the "diminishing" point is a point of frustration, while PvE gear is weighted down with useless stats all the time, but, that is a small point in comparison to RNG and Ilvl difference.

[Rezz]

Make the gear requirements hardcoded into being the same as requiring a certain level to equip an item. Don't have the rating? can't equip the item. Instantly solve 90% of point selling issues and reduce the amount of high rating people from fucking around in newbie brackets.

Solving win-trading is another issue entirely. To deter it, perhaps a hard limit of 3 games per day against the same team max. After 3 times you either no longer gain/lose rating for fighting them or they simply aren't allowed to fight you. Can't be harder to code than the old diminishing returns coding on honor for slaying a single person.

To fix the arena weapons in pve play thing, it's a simple thing for melee. Add a damage type in the game that only effects pcs, and make all arena weapons apply this instead of normal damage. Think wands, but with "Brutal" damage or something. As far as the rng and all that stuff goes... I hear they are adding more 10 mans in the expansion! Blizzard doesn't really know how to address raiding issues in general, apparently unkeying everything is their best response. Relax the keying process? Sure. Remove it entirely? Hi why have it at all except to cockblock early raiders so they don't beat your content before you're ready. Sony would like their PoP planning guide back Blizzard =/

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by Rezz

Make the gear requirements hardcoded into being the same as requiring a certain level to equip an item. Don't have the rating? can't equip the item. Instantly solve 90% of point selling issues and reduce the amount of high rating people from fucking around in newbie brackets.

So your saying if we have a bad weak my character becomes weaker?

My set up in 3's is really weak against PMR, which happens to be the most prevalent 3v3 team set up. We only win when we are better then the other players, if its even, we commonly lose. If we go ten games against good PMR teams, its entirely possible we will drop below 2k. So, what? Now I can't equip my shoulders because I had a bad week?

Because gear is such an integral part of character progression and power, having any system that allows you to "lose" gear in a game like this probably won't fly. Its the same basic premise for why Arena gear shouldn't be "arena" only, the "thought" of ownership, control and use of a piece of gear is huge in a players mind.

Solving win-trading is another issue entirely. To deter it, perhaps a hard limit of 3 games per day against the same team max. After 3 times you either no longer gain/lose rating for fighting them or they simply aren't allowed to fight you. Can't be harder to code than the old diminishing returns coding on honor for slaying a single person.

The problem becomes how tightly tuned the brackets are, sometimes even at prime time there are only 3 or 4 teams in a high end bracket playing. If 2 of those teams are locked into a game, and you have "hard" or "soft" diminishing returns, you would be looking at huge que time jumps or having to put a high rated team against a low rated team, either isn't great, unfortunately.

To fix the arena weapons in pve play thing, it's a simple thing for melee. Add a damage type in the game that only effects pcs, and make all arena weapons apply this instead of normal damage. Think wands, but with "Brutal" damage or something. As far as the rng and all that stuff goes... I hear they are adding more 10 mans in the expansion! Blizzard doesn't really know how to address raiding issues in general, apparently unkeying everything is their best response. Relax the keying process? Sure. Remove it entirely? Hi why have it at all except to cockblock early raiders so they don't beat your content before you're ready. Sony would like their PoP planning guide back Blizzard =/

The issue here is that progression needs to be real everywhere in the game, they don't want separate systems because they want the game to be unified. After all, its not supposed to "feel" like we all just meet in shat to show off our weapons and then go do different things. That guy with the glaives can kill you as good as he can a mob, making the glaives a status symbol every where, the same with s3 weapons.

I mean, really, how would you feel if you got your 2k+ s3 weapon and then had to flip out a blue weapon to do a 5 man? There is a reason blizz put the PvP cloaks as badges, its because they want the games to intersect.

[Frax]

We only win when we are better then the other players, if its even, we commonly lose.

I just had to quote that. You don't think team class composition, their spec, and their gear contribute at all? Those three things add up to more than individual 'player skill' in the big picture of WoW Arena games.

[Xequecal]

A very easy way to fix it, BTW, is to make it so all the gear can be worn without any rating requirement.....in Arena. If you want to equip it anywhere else you need the rating. That provides a level playing field for all Arena players and lets skill determine that competition, while not providing free epic PvE DPS gear.

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by Frax

I just had to quote that. You don't think team class composition, their spec, and their gear contribute at all? Those three things add up to more than individual 'player skill' in the big picture of WoW Arena games.

The whole post was about PMR, Priest, Mage, Rogue, the essence of the post was about class composition and how against this class comp we are at a disadvantage because we are not full drain or full DPS.

So, I fail to understand the point of this post?

Most people would assume that in the upper brackets you have gear and since we were talking about PMR, a very specific team set up, we know the specs and since the whole post was about class composition, I think I covered all the points in your post, yes? In fact, my post was almost entirely about the "facets" of wow arena composition that you were pointing to.

[Rezz]

Originally Posted by Lithose

So your saying if we have a bad weak my character becomes weaker?

To preface I should have added in that once you hit whatever rating a piece of gear is required at with a specific team, that team rating no longer drops below that level, so you are not put into contention with lower tier teams period. It would only effect your ability to use that gear on other teams such as 2v2 or 5v5. Personal rating can fluctuate and thus change your point intake and what have you (the primary reasoning behind rating is to keep "scrubs" from getting gear beyond them at a reasonable rate) without changing what bracket your team is now hardcoded to compete at. Moral to the story: don't team hop and don't form teams with people you may need to kick off.

Originally Posted by Lithose

The problem becomes how tightly tuned the brackets are, sometimes even at prime time there are only 3 or 4 teams in a high end bracket playing.

The brackets are gonna be a -lot- more restrictive period with blizzard's changes. But you'll also have more people in each bracket who are actually supposed to be at that bracket. Combining the concept of dim. returns with smaller brackets would reduce point selling/win trading teams a lot. But other than that, aside from blizzard targeting them like they target hackers, there's really not a lot you can do about that specific issue.

Originally Posted by Lithose

That guy with the glaives can kill you as good as he can a mob, making the glaives a status symbol every where, the same with s3 weapons.

I mean, really, how would you feel if you got your 2k+ s3 weapon and then had to flip out a blue weapon to do a 5 man? There is a reason blizz put the PvP cloaks as badges, its because they want the games to intersect.

Then why does PVP armor have vastly different stats from PVE armor, making them barely tradeable and mostly inferior at different roles? Unless we are talking about combining all sets into one, why should weapons be so different now? And regarding the s3 weapon deal, I would pve to get a purple pve weapon. Excelling at one area shouldn't make another completely unrelated area easier. I'm personally completely in favor for pvp gear in it's entirety not working except on pcs and grey mobs while pve gear only working with npcs and grey pcs. And I play on a pvp server.

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by Rezz

To preface I should have added in that once you hit whatever rating a piece of gear is required at with a specific team, that team rating no longer drops below that level, so you are not put into contention with lower tier teams period. It would only effect your ability to use that gear on other teams such as 2v2 or 5v5. Personal rating can fluctuate and thus change your point intake and what have you (the primary reasoning behind rating is to keep "scrubs" from getting gear beyond them at a reasonable rate) without changing what bracket your team is now hardcoded to compete at. Moral to the story: don't team hop and don't form teams with people you may need to kick off.

Yeah, but the post is restrictive in the PvE sense, not really other types of arena. Basically, what your saying is if you earned the 2k in 5v5, you can use the shoulders only in 5v5, which leads us down the "arena equipment only in arena". Unless I am misunderstanding.

Then why does PVP armor have vastly different stats from PVE armor, making them barely tradeable and mostly inferior at different roles? Unless we are talking about combining all sets into one, why should weapons be so different now? And regarding the s3 weapon deal, I would pve to get a purple pve weapon. Excelling at one area shouldn't make another completely unrelated area easier. I'm personally completely in favor for pvp gear in it's entirety not working except on pcs and grey mobs while pve gear only working with npcs and grey pcs. And I play on a pvp server.

They are inferior, I would hardly call them vastly inferior. Our shadow priests can heal just fine on illidan with S3 healing gear. A lock in full vengful, gemmed for PvE is not going to be that far behind a lock in PvE gear..Will there be a significant disadvantage? Yes, but its not so massive that your going to trade down to t4 for.

Also, as for the game being seperate (IE PvP gear for PvP only).

There is a basic philosophy in WoW's direction that I agree with, so, yes, my opinion is biased. That philosophy is keeping WoW a unified game, where all aspects of the game work simmilarly among the various meta-games in WoW. Obviously there are exceptions to this (CC times, CoD, certain other things), however, the "feel" of the character remains very simmilar amongst the meta games, which is very important.

Why should the ultimate-tournament winning gladiator of awesomeness be reduced to a green geared player when outside the arena. He was rewarded for "skill" and "time" the same way everyone else was, so why should his gear be useless? It takes away from what a player earned and makes it feel less worthwhile, the same way not using PvE weapons in PvP makes them less "awesome". You gain this gear so your character experiences a progression in all aspects of the game, there by making the game world feel like a "world" rather then a chat client so you can play meta-games.

Which is really the point. If you start developing completely separate rule systems for the games, then your going to be making the game clunky and "artificial". PvE players will never cross over to PvP because things work so differently and because it offers no benefit to their primary goal, and vice versa. The arena brackets are full of primarily PvE players who enjoy PvP and Vice versa, we have 9 gladiators in my guild alone (And we are not top progression nor a PvP guild, the front PvE guild has more), which is a good thing, it shows the game is very unified.

The problem is resilience. Because of the stat-spread on PvP gear, Resil makes very little impact on over all distribution, however, the lack of resil on P vE gear makes it useless in the arena, with the exception of 3-4 pieces (End boss weapons, and 2-3 non-set pieces). Which makes things too much of a one way street for most classes (Mostly melee).

Resil was a good addition, a bit more is needed, but it kind of worked, even if the devs didn't intend it (Resil was only put in to make PvP slower, Blizz said they never intended it to differentiate PvE/PvP). PvP items shouldn't be as good in PvE ans vice versa, however, as is now, the flow from PvP-->PvE is too easy "in comparison" to PvE--->PvP and I think a lot has to do with the 5 item level gap in gear, but opinions on that vary, too.