WOW, Season 4. Arena or GTFO

[Zest]

You're proving his point.

Scrubs don't play on TR because they don't win anything. If ratings become out of reach on Live, they won't play there either. The less people that play, the harder it is to get rating. The harder it is to get rating, the less people that play. The less people that play, the harder it is to get rating.

And this week I played almost 30 2v2 games, over half of which were against 5/5 S3 teams, and the majority of those were reroll teams. Getting rolled for 18, 14 and 11 points by the same team that only has 6 games played is ass when three different teams do it.

This late in the season, unless you know a Druid or a Rogue, you will not hit 1850 without the best possible gear in your other slots.

[Makata]

Originally Posted by Niafix04

Some high rated players do reroll teams, but they generally push through the lower ratings very quickly and you don't play them more than once or twice.

This sentence needs specific attention to expose just how incredibly stupid it is. On a match-by-match basis, team rating is a ZERO SUM. It doesn't make any difference if they play 3 games going from 1500 to 1650 winning 50 points each game or play 30 games only gaining 5 points each game. That is 150 points they took from someone else, somewhere, in the system. Whenever that kind of person resets a rating higher than 1500, the average drops. It makes absolutely ZERO difference the manner in which they go from 1500 to 2200. They can play the same time every time and drop that team down to 800; or 2 teams down to 1150; or any one of 18 trillion other combinations. It lowers the average team rating across the board. And since ELO based systems are designed to be zero sum from the get go, and establishing requirements around this fact, everyone suffers. Get this through your incredibly thick yet incredibly tiny skull.

Rerolls cause people to be forced to fight at a rating lower than what they would otherwise fight at, which trickles down to every other team they fight, and every team those teams fight, etc. Any 1 reroll will have a very small effect but compound every one of them and players who would normally hover at a 1600 rating will now hover at 1525 or w/e. The effect isn't even close to linear either. Since far more people fit in the 1500-1600 range than fit in the 1600-1700 range (and so on), rating requirements get religiously fucked.

All the proof you're going to need is the season 4 helm. It requires 1700 PR. Take a piece of paper right now and write down the percentage of people you think should be capable of hitting 1700. Assholes like you are convinced anyone can do it so I'm sure that number is going to be very high right? ANYONE can grab a druid and faceroll a 2v2 to 1700 right????? Wait a month or 2 or however long you want after season 4 starts. Start a tally for how many NON-SELLERS NON-BUYERS have the item. Put a hash mark under yes for every legit player who has one and a hash mark under no for every one that doesn't. Now compute that ratio and come tell us what it is. When you realize that something that only requires 1700 is basically going to end up being off limits to the average Joe thanks to the retarded exploitive nature of arena, maybe you can finally understand how seriously fucked up the system truly is.

I for one will be buying s3 helm as soon as s4 launches.

[The Ancient]

Sure, sure. It's a zero sum system except for the fact that you can reset your team ratings at any time and there are constatnly new entrants into the system.

Let's just ignore the fact that historically ratings have drifted upward over the course of any season because it would basically invalidate any of these retarded arguments.

[Cuppycake]

Originally Posted by Murr

On a related note, how fast is honor grind these days? Like if I played 4-5 hours on a BG weekend, how much honor could I expect to generate?

I'm not the best to answer this, because I've only earned about 11k honor total as a level 70. But I earned that 11k doing about 3 hours of AV during last AV weekend, and doing like 5 hours of AV without bonus honor. So it's taken me about 8 hours of AV to earn 11k.

I'm not really sure what piece I should go for first. I wanted to get the Gladiator's Salvation but I wonder if I wouldn't be smarter to get some of the other armor first. Any suggestions for the order to get this stuff in?

[Zehn - Vhex]

Right now? Nothing. New season in a couple of weeks and the S2 shit will be on the honor system and is markably better then S1 gear.

Beyond that though, weapon tends to be the biggest, then just move down the list of what's the biggest upgrade for you. Depending on if you get badges/intend to focus on pve/pvp.

[Wodin]

Originally Posted by Zest

You're proving his point.

Scrubs don't play on TR because they don't win anything. If ratings become out of reach on Live, they won't play there either. The less people that play, the harder it is to get rating. The harder it is to get rating, the less people that play. The less people that play, the harder it is to get rating.

No, they don't play on TR because it's another $20 + a bunch of permission forms and shit that requires a lot more work than "log on, grab your buddies, and queue"

[Makata]

Originally Posted by The Ancient

Sure, sure. It's a zero sum system except for the fact that you can reset your team ratings at any time and there are constatnly new entrants into the system.

Yea hi that's my entire point. It's built to BE a zero sum but asshole rerollers ensure it never will be.

Let's just ignore the fact that historically ratings have drifted upward over the course of any season because it would basically invalidate any of these retarded arguments.

Whose asshole did you pull this bold faced lie out of? Honestly ask yourself: do the number of people with legitimately LOW rankings (resetting your 1440 to 1500 does jack shit) even come close to the number of people / frequency with which those people drop their 2k+ teams to sell points/rating or for profit? Average ratings DROP.

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Wodin

No, they don't play on TR because it's another $20 + a bunch of permission forms and shit that requires a lot more work than "log on, grab your buddies, and queue"

And it changes what, exactly?

People who have no chance of winning TR don't play. The concept is the same. People who aren't getting rewards out of a system won't play it, thus reducing the amount of people playing. Less people playing = Less people above 1500. Less people above 1500 = Less hitting the static rating requirements for gear, which is what we've been saying since this whole debacle started

[The Ancient]

Originally Posted by Makata

Whose asshole did you pull this bold faced lie out of? Honestly ask yourself: do the number of people with legitimately LOW rankings (resetting your 1440 to 1500 does jack shit) even come close to the number of people / frequency with which those people drop their 2k+ teams to sell points/rating or for profit? Average ratings DROP.

If your retarded logic was true, that would certainly be the case. But the fact is Makata, as usual, you are just plain wrong.

World of Warcraft Arena Ranking | SK Gaming

Top ranked team is 2783 right now, last month there wasn't anyone that high. Shortly after the season started there wasn't anyone above 2500. Can you shut your ignorant trap now?

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

People who aren't getting rewards out of a system won't play it

And you keep assuming people can't get rewards out of the system despite not being able to show any evidence that supports this beyond the fact that you failed to reach 1700.

[brekk]

so yeah my friend and I are beating our heads against the wall in 2v2 arenas.

I went 38/2/21 Disc Priest (21 for silence) with ~800 spelldmg, 400 resil, 12k hp buffed.

Teammate is 45/11/5 Boomkin with like 370 resil.

in PVE im Spriest, hes Boomkin, do we just have to accept that we have a piss poor group comp. We recently gained access to an account with a 60 rogue, considering leveling him up and each doing 5 games per week with the other one playing the rogue.

Note: One nice thing about our comp is we absolutely dominate Dru/War. A druid can shuttdown a warrior like its no one business.

[The Ancient]

With a slight shift in playstyle your friend could spec restokin which you should be able to see some success with. Certainly better than you'll do with a fresh 70 rogue and constant partner swaps.

[Niafix04]

Originally Posted by Makata

do the number of people with legitimately LOW rankings (resetting your 1440 to 1500 does jack shit) even come close to the number of people / frequency with which those people drop their 2k+ teams to sell points/rating or for profit? Average ratings DROP.

Although your whole argument goes off on some tangent only partly related to what was being discussed, I'll address this part anyway.

This doesn't really happen so much anymore, but teams that are sold do give points back to the system when poor players lose 10 games a week and drop the rating down. You might say that a team like that will eventually become inactive once the poor players decide to buy another team, but also keep in mind all of the sub 1500 teams that go inactive and are remade every week as well. There are many more sub1500 teams that reform every week when compared to the teams that are 2k+ and reform for whatever reason. Even statistically speaking only a very small number of players are able to reach 2k, and a small percentage of those reroll.

The fact is that most players with full s3/weapons that you see time and time again at sub 1800 ratings are just poor players, and not rerolling gladiator teams.

It is true that, overall, ratings inflate over the duration of a season. thinking otherwise is dumb, and you are dumb. that is why you try to argue it

Edit for clarification

[Antoine]

I made a diagram (on my touchpad, no less) showing how, even when the average rating goes down, it can be easier later in the season to reach ratings barriers.

[Makata]

Originally Posted by The Ancient

If your retarded logic was true, that would certainly be the case. But the fact is Makata, as usual, you are just plain wrong.

World of Warcraft Arena Ranking | SK Gaming

Top ranked team is 2783 right now, last month there wasn't anyone that high. Shortly after the season started there wasn't anyone above 2500. Can you shut your ignorant trap now?

It really saddens me that you actually think you're right.

Take 10 cups and fill them each 1/10th full of water. The average amount of water in each cup is 10% and the maximum is 10%. Pour all the water from 9 of the cups into just 1 cup and pour the water from the 10th cup out. What's the average amount of water in eachc up? 9%. What's the maximum? 90%. Maximums and minimums have precisely fuck all to do with averages, sir. They may in some cases help give you an idea of what the average might be but they can very easily, such as in this case, be misleading. A 2700 team just means that more 2600 teams got pushed down to 2500 to make room, and they caused even more 2500 teams to be pushed down to 2400, etc. It continues to be a trickle effect.

And you keep assuming people can't get rewards out of the system despite not being able to show any evidence that supports this beyond the fact that you failed to reach 1700.

We've given up trying to explain how 1700 is going to be out of reach for most non-selling, non-buying arena players in s4. Yes, some of you will get it. Congrats. Really. 2 months down the line when retention rates start to drop, enjoy the slow decline of your rating since 1800s won't stop queuing, just 1300s, et all.

Originally Posted by Niafix04

This doesn't really happen so much anymore, but teams that are sold do give points back to the system when poor players lose 10 games a week and drop the rating down. You might say that a team like that will eventually become inactive once the poor players decide to buy another team, but also keep in mind all of the sub 1500 teams that go inactive and are remade every week as well. There are many more sub1500 teams that reform every week when compared to the teams that are 2k+ and reform for whatever reason. Even statistically speaking only a very small number of players are able to reach 2k, and a small percentage of those reroll.

The fact is that most players with full s3/weapons that you see time and time again at sub 1800 ratings are just poor players, and not rerolling gladiator teams.

It is true that, overall, ratings inflate over the duration of a season. thinking otherwise is dumb, and you are dumb. that is why you try to argue it

Edit for clarification

I'm almost at a loss for words. (Almost I said!!)

Let's start with: "teams that are sold do give points back to the system." WRONG. The average team rating doesn't move just because a team loses. For every 1 team rating lost, 1 is gained. It is a ZERO SUM. Points are only added or lost when a team is disbanded or, depending on how you want to classify "average," goes inactive. It makes no difference that a 2k team of scrubs slowly bleed off their rating .. they had to TAKE those rating points in the first place. Having a rerolled team jump to 1850 from sellers and then trickle back to 1500 is a net gain of 0. These types of players will disband and buy a new team before 1500 anyway since 2's and 3's are only making ~350-400 pts a week here.

"keep in mind all of the sub 1500 teams that go inactive and are remade every week as well. There are many more sub1500 teams that reform every week when compared to the teams that are 2k+ and reform for whatever reason." Once again. Wrong. Who honestly remakes a new 2v2 each week to lose 10 games for a whooping 250 points? Who's going to do that in s4 when you can only buy IIRC 3-5 items that way? A legitimately bad team won't reroll their 1350 team because they're just going to drop back to 1350 and the point difference is minute. You really must not actually play arena much to think it's uncommon for the 2k players to reform constantly.
* PR selling
* TR selling / point selling
* griefing
* shits n' giggles
* power rating a friend/guildie
IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME SIR. Shitty battlegroups may escape this but at least 4-6 games every week for me are against people w/ s3 weap and shoulders. This is in the 1500s.

"The fact is that most players with full s3/weapons that you see time and time again at sub 1800 ratings are just poor players, and not rerolling gladiator teams." And how exactly is it this poor players GOT to 1850/2000 in the first place? Oh .. right. THE FUCKING RATING SELLERS. Jesus Christ son. It's not like 1700 players just happen to face double naked ret paladin teams 47 times in a row to hit 1850 and just get lucky. "Poor players" only get these items because of the very problem we have been TRYING to explain to you.

[Mist]

Ratings went up over the course of the seasons from people making new teams. Previously, people made lots of new teams to sell them. There are other reasons to make new teams, but now with teams not being sold there will be a lot less new teams and therefore ratings will go up more slowly.