WOW, Season 4. Arena or GTFO

[Clug]

And this is why personal rating should not be reset.

Sure you could tank your rating by losing a lot but that takes time and it also feed points back into the pool.

Using your suggested exploit method never feeds points back to the 1600'ish rated teams you are stealing them from.

[Cad]

What would happen if you did away with Team Rating all together and just had the queue-rating be the average of the personal ratings of the people queued, managed the loss/gain of points for win/lose on that, and never reset PR?

[Zerai]

Originally Posted by Cad

What would happen if you did away with Team Rating all together and just had the queue-rating be the average of the personal ratings of the people queued, managed the loss/gain of points for win/lose on that, and never reset PR?

A friend just said that yesterday actually. I'd be in full support of it.

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Cad

What would happen if you did away with Team Rating all together and just had the queue-rating be the average of the personal ratings of the people queued, managed the loss/gain of points for win/lose on that, and never reset PR?

That would be like the system we proposed months ago, and would actually be logical.

So, we'll never see it.

[The Ancient]

You have to add something in where you don't win any points if you are 100 points above the average otherwise the exploit becomes: lose your way to 1400 on your alt team, rejoin your real team and make loads of points playing teams at your low average rating.

[Mippo]

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

That would be like the system we proposed months ago, and would actually be logical.

So, we'll never see it.

Would points for the week be calculated based on the average personal rating of everyone on the team, or each persons individual rating?

Regardless of the answer to the above question, how is that an improvement over the current system? If the team is queued at the average rating, you can still manipulate it so that one person has a high rating, and one person has a low rating so the person with the higher rating is facing teams lower then he should be to allow him easy victories to push his personal rating even higher.

As an example:

You have an 1800 rating, and your friend has an 1800 rating. He joins another team to lose, and tank his rating down to say, 1400. Now he joins your team again and queue 2v2 at 1600, the average. You now beat teams at 1600, but he improves his rating over 1800. When he hits 1900 you can now leave the team, join another team and tank your rating back to 1400, or heck what about going to say, 1300?

Now you rejoin the team and your 2v2 will queue at 1600 again, the average of your 1300 and his 1900. He once again wins games in the 1600 range, but can now push his rating up to 2000, never facing high teams.

So, I ask, how exactly would the system you propose be an upgrade over the current system? It seems to me it would make it even easier to exploit.

The actual problem is that you can't allow people to manipulate the teams they face and letting people queue based on an average rating is doing just that, with or without a team rating. All you need to do is keep one player high, and one player low and voila, you can face teams well below your skill level, and still improve your rating. People can face lesser opponents to improve their rating beyond where it should be, and the lesser opponents are basically getting screwed getting paired up against teams they should never be facing.

[Zerai]

If you're more than 100 points above the average rank, you gain very little points. Keep the same system as current. So you'll get like 1-5 points for winning. Your teammate will gain enough to go up. So he'll get up to what you're queueing at and his points will drop off a ton. Meaning to get above 1800 significantly, you're going to have to play like 50 games or be queued at a rating you should be.

[Mippo]

The problem is that this isn't the first time they have made the EXACT SAME MISTAKE.

As Furor would say, FIX THIUHS SHITZNIZT OR I QUIT IN 14 DAYZ!!!!

People exploited the personal ratings when items only required a personal rating, but not a team rating. This is no different except now people can do it by keeping their team rating high, and increasing the team rating to go along with the personal.

It even creates additional problems because everyone doing it is screwing lower rated teams out of personal rating because of the way its calculated. How many teams out there have now played 100% of the games and yet, their personal is 20+ points behind the team rating? Half of the threads on the WoW forum are complaining about it now.

In addition to not fixing anything, it's hard as hell to switch teams to play with friends.

1) Did we take the fun out of arena by not allowing people to switch teams and play with their friends on other teams? Check
2) Did we make it so lower rated players are screwed moreso then normal? Check
3) Did we make it so people can easily exploit the ratings to get items? Check

Ok bob, the patch is ready to go in.

[Clug]

Originally Posted by Mippo

People can face lesser opponents to improve their rating beyond where it should be, and the lesser opponents are basically getting screwed getting paired up against teams they should never be facing.

Again, which is why you keep the current 2.4.2 system and make PR non-resetable for the course of the season.

What is so hard to understand about this?

[Cad]

Originally Posted by The Ancient

You have to add something in where you don't win any points if you are 100 points above the average otherwise the exploit becomes: lose your way to 1400 on your alt team, rejoin your real team and make loads of points playing teams at your low average rating.

Wouldn't that balance out because since PR never gets reset in that system, "losing your way to 1400" would put points in the system that didn't belong. Whomever you auto-lost to in order to get your PR down to 1400 probably didn't deserve the points because they beat someone's alt that was afk or whatever - the points will come right back when you start "winning" again to go up.. the balance of points remains the same.

I suppose all the team's players could lose their way down to 1400, and then they'd play teams far below their ability, but that would balance back out when they started winning again. Unless you have a character that can be played at a very high level and doesn't mind tanking his own rating in order to help the other people on the team, I don't see how that would help, and would certainly be a lot less exploitive than what we have today.

[Mippo]

Originally Posted by Clug

Again, which is why you keep the current 2.4.2 system and make PR non-resetable for the course of the season.

What is so hard to understand about this?

Again, I already answered this a few posts above. All people would have to do is join another team, lose on that team to lower their personal then rejoin your team with a lower personal to achieve the same results. Your solution fixes nothing.

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Mippo

Again, I already answered this a few posts above. All people would have to do is join another team, lose on that team to lower their personal then rejoin your team with a lower personal to achieve the same results. Your solution fixes nothing.

It at least feeds points back into the system. Right now you don't have to lose to drop your rating. If you actually have to join another team and lose 50 games, those points go back into the system.

The problem lies when points never get fed into the bottom, but keep ending up at the top. If you've gotta lose 50 games to get your weapon, fine, at least you're feeding the scrubs some points for half the week first.

[Mippo]

Originally Posted by Cad

Wouldn't that balance out because since PR never gets reset in that system, "losing your way to 1400" would put points in the system that didn't belong. Whomever you auto-lost to in order to get your PR down to 1400 probably didn't deserve the points because they beat someone's alt that was afk or whatever - the points will come right back when you start "winning" again to go up.. the balance of points remains the same.

I suppose all the team's players could lose their way down to 1400, and then they'd play teams far below their ability, but that would balance back out when they started winning again. Unless you have a character that can be played at a very high level and doesn't mind tanking his own rating in order to help the other people on the team, I don't see how that would help, and would certainly be a lot less exploitive than what we have today.

The "balance" of points might be better but you would still be giving free points to people who don't deserve it, and taking points from people who earned it and allowing people to get higher ratings then they deserve by keeping the team average down so they queue against lesser opponents. How exactly is this "less exploitive"?

Before you could level 2 teams, then win trade them to push one team even higher. Instead of that, you can lower the average of your personal so you face teams much less skilled, and increase your rating above where it should be.

When win-traders raised one team, they beat their other team to do it. Now you would just lower your average, and beat lesser skilled teams that are trying to improve. Sorry, but that is worse then the win trading. People would still achieve the exploit of getting to ratings they don't deserve, but now they are taking it from people that earned it, as opposed to farming their own teams.

[column]

Heres whats funny if you took away all rewards and just had titles for PVP, the good people would still PVP.

I have no clue why anyone would care if scrubs have good equipment.Scrubs in good equipment are still scrubs.

[Cad]

How do you keep your team average down though? -> lose games you should have won
What does losing games do? -> give points to other teams
What do you do once you get your team average down? -> win games easily

Seems to balance out a bit. The only really exploitive scenario there is pretend you have a 3's team, where one player tanks his rating down to 1200 by solo queueing into 3's on another team in between every game. So if the other 2 players are 2000, then the average would be 1733. So if all 3 players were really "2000" level players, then the other two guy's rating would go up from 2000 when it really shouldn't, because they'd be playing mid-1700's teams. On the other hand, the 1200 guy would be giving points away in order to keep his rating at 1200, and plus he'd get virtually no equipment since his personal rating would be so low.

Perhaps lock people onto a team for the arena week once you join, and have personal rating span team sizes? So your performance in 2's, 3's, and 5's affects your overall PR, rather than having a different one for each bracket?