WOW, Season 4. Arena or GTFO

[Lost Ranger]

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

Same argument, different day.

Fair enough, no need to get back into it.

[Izuldan]

Originally Posted by l0z

Not necessarily. Most long-term PvP settings understand that new players are the lifeblood of the PvP experience. Without newbies to feed on, the experienced players quickly get bored and the system eventually collapses.

If those new players are going to get their asses handed to them repeatedly, then it's probably a good idea to give them something for their troubles. Can that be exploited? Sure. So you mitigate it as much as possible - resilience was the attempted mitigation. It sucks points from the stat allotment, as do the high stamina values on PvP items.

It's not rewarding failure, it's incentivizing participation.

There are clearly a few people who don't understand that, but most experienced players (and designers) do.

Not if the arena was working the way it should, which would be high rated teams would NOT be bottom feeding, they would be matched only against the other high rated teams.

New players coming in rated 1500 are not going to get their asses handed to them repeatedly by experienced teams because they should never meet.

The 2000+ rated team plays against other 2000+ rated teams to try and become 2100+ rated teams.

Point selling is what is screwing up the picture. That, and also a lack of incentive to stay at a high ranking once you've gotten your gear.

Again, newbies are not, and should not, be the "lifeblood" of the experienced players. That's the mentality of the lvl 70 sitting in Nesingwary's in STV and thinking that's some form of rewarding PvP.

Newbies should fight newbies, and once they get more experience and achieve a higher rating, then they get to fight other more experienced teams....all the way to the top if they are capable. Isn't that the whole idea behind a "ladder"? What we have currently in WoW is an abortion of that concept.

Frankly, I'm of the notion that if you repeatedly lose in the arena, you should get nothing. FFS, you can already lose your way in BG to all the purples you need, why not attempt to make the arena something a little special for those who like to min/max and achieve something different than 90% of the other playerbase. It can be it's own little microcosm. Someone in the top 10% of arena teams, and ONLY those people, get to wear the latest shoulder piece. A little differentiation from the masses; not to be confused with those who lose for 2 or 3 months solid and then get to wear that exact same shoulder piece by buying their way onto a winning team.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Anyways...Dumar's ever spiraling trip into batshit insaneville aside...

You have to reward the drooling retards. The reason they don't win games is their rating never gets low enough for them to face other drooling retards though.

There is -no- un-monitored system that will prevent people from exploiting/griefing it. However, if you can create a something whereby you're rewarded for trying to compete at a level you're capable of? Great. It keeps everybody playing.

The best I can think of is that the personal rating requirement drops by 1 point per win on the team you are currently on and that point awards are based on your win/loss ratio with maximum points being awarded for maintaining a 50/50 win-loss ratio.

And if you want to add end-of-season rewards for people at certain ranks...why the shit not? Title is step one. Why not a certain honor point bonus? If you're 1600 rated or below end of season you get 20k honor, 20 of each BG token. 1600-1800 rated get 30k/30each, 1800-2000 get 40k/40 each, 2k+ get's 60k/60each.

The only issue I can see here is a team of druid/warlock might tank themselves down to 1200 rating, then waffle-stomp 5 people and lose 5 games on purpose each week. Short of Blizzard finding way to track behavior like this though, no way to stop it.

But they I should hope would be in the minority.

[Torrid]

Originally Posted by Kreugen

Sorry, any system where you can be rewarded without ever winning is complete shit from the start. Hopefully they will completely change the entire system in WOLK instead of this band aid crap.

Agreed, of course. If only you guys would read AV threads.

Speaking of which, comparing S4 arena to AV on Stormstrike does not work because there are three other battlegrounds to get your honor in, and you do not have anywhere near as much control over whether you win or lose in a 40 man battleground. So suggesting that people will abandon the arena in droves in season 4 and pointing to AV as proof doesn't quite work.

Blizzard's poor matchmaking is what is killing the arena far more than anything else. Even losing just one game that you otherwise would have won out of 10 a week to point sellers could easily mean the difference between gaining or losing rating for the week. And people want to pull out a 20% number out of their ass and call it no big deal? Even if 20% were accurate, it would be a huge deal. Especially considering that if a team was "where it is supposed to be" rating wise, it will win/lose 50%/50%.

I do find it a bit ironic that when we discuss such issues, the topic of "fun" in this GAME never even comes up. It's as if the path to epics does not matter in the slightest and the sum of pleasure from the game is solely derived from clicking "buy" on the vendor. Bad matchmaking/point selling kills the fun of the arena. And fun, after all, is the entire fucking point of a computer game, which in turn affects participation.

I would agree, however, that static rating requirements are somewhat flawed in a system with dynamic skill indication. 1850 rating is not the same level of skill on every battlegroup or every season, as everybody knows. So a rating requirement that somehow adjusts itself based on the number of teams or points in the system or whatever would be appropriate, I think.

[Arbitrary]

AV still works as a comparison because a path of low resistance still exists to be an alternative for the Arena.

Badges.

I do think that I should get to work on my failing right now though so I can buy an offhand with S4. I'd rather spend the Arena points than even my 45 badges.

[Torrid]

Because it's so easy...

Originally Posted by 2008 Makata

In order for guild A to kill Illidan, it isn't a requirement that guilds B-Z fail. Building a system in which it is impossible for people to ever get something is inherently flawed.

You say 90% don't deserve it. Okay. Why will they even queue then? No it won't be the cataclysmic prediction where all of the scrubs will refuse to queue, but don't for a second think the queuing population won't plummet.

Hello 2008 Makata. Meet 2006 Makata!

Originally Posted by 2006 Makata

Now we're going to see everyone and their fucking brother in this gear and the appeal is gone out the window. I can appreciate Blizzard wanting to make the system a bit easier for those with lower time commitments, but this "let's just hand it out to everyone" approach is definitely not the answer.

Originally Posted by 2006 Makata

I really don't think you should be given access to the best possible pvp loot available since there is no other means of limitation. There HAS to be means of saying "you qualify" and "you don't" or else there is no prestige or desire to get them in the first place.

Originally Posted by 2006 Makata

you're giving EVERYONE the rather powerful rewards. How is that at all logical?

Originally Posted by 2006 Makata

gear actually means something. It means I accomplished what very few people have and say what you want about me, I'm fucking proud of it. Not many people had the determination to play long hours for months on end just for a shriveled up carrot on a very long stick, but I did. Call it e-peen if you want to. You obviously have no idea what it feels like to be part of a cohesive and organized pvp team that plays for hours and hours and hours week after week. Again, say anything negative you want about me or the system but I'm one of only about 30 or so people on my server (horde side) who have reached this goal and and all but 2 have been in my guild when they achieved it. It's something that actually means something to me and they're fucking GIVING IT AWAY as if it were worthless.

Originally Posted by 2006 Makata

How about pvp'ing in order to just enjoy the fucking game? Do you have to have some prize behind every door to bother continuing?

Originally Posted by 2006 Makata

Just as many people pvp now as they ever have if not more. Most people aren't as myopic as you.

Originally Posted by 2006 Makata

loot should be a PRIVILEGE, not a right. Just because you want it doesn't mean you deserve to get it if you put in enough time. Having things be only available to a select few is fucking vital to the longevity of the game. What is the fun in playing a game in which every person can get whatever they want?

Originally Posted by 2006 Makata

See, I'm the type of guy who HATES double standards but can accept fair things even if they don't swing my way.

[Zest]

What about a system that rewarded you based on the arena points you'd earned for the season?

If buying legs required 1000 points on your team for the season, a 2200 player would buy them at the end of the first week, and a 1300 player would get them after a month. Make it so that you have to have played in 50% of your team's games before you're eligible to purchase based on the team's points, and things should get much more difficult for sellers.

Also start awarding the Gladiator rewards to the teams that have the highest number of earned points for the season. So if you want your drake and title, you need to get your team together quickly and play throughout the entire season rather than just going all out in the last two weeks.

[Arbitrary]

Torrid, dude, you stole one of my patented moves!

YOU STOLE MY MOVE NEGRO.

[Lost Ranger]

Originally Posted by Torrid

Because it's so easy...



Hello 2008 Makata. Meet 2006 Makata!

rofl!!!!

Well played Torrid!

[Grave]

Killing Spree.

[Makata]

Because clearly opinions cannot change over time. You're also comparing a good system (r14 on single server battlegroups) to an abomination of one (arena dictating nearly everything).

The pvp system has raped, beaten around, sodomized, and then thrown out on the curb in the ghetto without even cab fare. Not many people took pvp seriously back then which was good for those of us who did. Now that the system has been dumbed down so much that anyone can get anything, you cannot simply reverse that and expect it to fly. Make a kid bust his ass for a $2/week allowance and he won't know any better and keep doing it. Let him sit on his ass for $10 and then 6 months later expect him to bust his ass for $2 again and GFL.

You know Torrid, I'm glad you think the pvp system actually means something anymore and isn't just a mildly entertaining form of gear acquisition. You're probably having alot more fun with it than I am, that's for sure. But remember one thing once this patch goes through: I didn't need alliance to queue on my server and lose time after time for me to hit R14 since regardless of how much they actually queued, my guild would still be able to bogart the top 10-15 spots. But now, you DO need scrubs like me to queue in your arena games in order to allow ratings to be inflated to 2k. Maybe even your team will manage. Again congratulations. But don't come back to these boards in a couple months bitching about how us losers won't play in a system we can't win at in order to let you win.

[Seo]

Originally Posted by Makata

Because clearly opinions cannot change over time.

Your opinions change more than you manage to change classes. and lets face it we honestly haven't seen levels of retardation like yours since SAMDAMAN graced us with his presence.

[Arbitrary]

Quoting Old Makata holds no sway over New Makata.

[Zehn - Vhex]

I like beating Makata up as much as the next kid on the playground here but he's sorta right.

Scrubs, fresh 70's, twinks and rerollers will still play regardless. You can still get S3/S2 gear pretty easily. There are plenty of these guys still running around.

The only people getting screwed here are those that have full S2/S3 despite never getting over a 1600 rating. Now they have nothing to get.

These are the people who are going to say "fuck this noise" and give up. They may play long enough to get their way back to 5000 points after buying the 2 pieces they can get, so I doubt we'll see much of a change over the first 8 weeks or so.

Anyways...

There are two types of PvPers ultimately. You have your Torrid's and Makata2006's of the world who feel pvp is only meaningful if the other guy suffers. Doesn't matter what the reward is, if you can oppress the other guy, ruin his day, you win. This is a self-defeating system and usually results in fewer people playing overall until only the griefers remain,

Then you have people like myself who could give a fuckall about the other guy, just so long as I keep having people to play against. This system has led to the insane popularity of PvP in WoW ever since the "TRUE PVPers!" got their vagina's hurt when Blizzard started giving away free epix.

Ultimately?

In addition to the changes I would make to the system above (Whereby you are rewarded for competing at the level you're capable of instead of resetting your rating every week being the only option you have)...

I also wish they would finally implement three 'hardcore pvp' servers. One with perma-death, one with item/gold loot, and one with significant xp loss or something, like a level every time someone kills you. Let the griefer kids have a playground all of their own.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Makata

. . . You're also comparing a good system (r14 on single server battlegroups) to an abomination of one (arena dictating nearly everything) .

Anyone who thought the old r14 system was a good system is a fucking retard.