WOW, Season 4. Arena or GTFO

[Dumar]

okay, i'll say it one more time.

what i've said are not designs. repeat, they are not designs. the design of a mmo requires a huge amount of capital both in terms of money and brain trust. it's huge, complicated, with tons of interconnecting components that require a design spec on a massive scale. not only to accomodate this, but to accomodate the 4 years down the road (2004-2008 and beyond). it's a very huge and complex problem. ONE EXAMPLE of what you can do in said system DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A DESIGN.

what i argue in these threads are NOT DESIGNS. they are NOT DESIGNS. i'm telling you people the GOALS of designs you should be expecting from these BILLION dollar companies. blizzard has the resources to make truly groundbreaking experiences that we've NEVER seen before. what do we get? we get wow: a total failure in pushing the envelope. and the future looks very bleak. that's what we have and will have. that's what has to change.

so what i'm telling you and all the brow beaters is the potential and what YOU should expect as consumers. but you insist on flaming and defending their decisions for whatever reason. i get your reply from a million other people that have no idea what they're talking about when they say "your design is shit."

it's like talking to monkeys about calculus, i swear. EXPECT more please. no, demand more.

[Tullaeniel]

Originally Posted by Dumar

semantics

Dumb is Dumb no matter what YOU choose to call it.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Except everybody already knows what the goal is. We're talking about what color socks to wear and you're trying to say "YOU HAVE TO PUT CLOTHES ON" like it's some kind of unique perspective that nobody has ever thought of before.

No fucking shit?

[l0z]

I'm sorry. Where did you ever get the idea that Blizzard was a company interested in things pushing the envelope? Because I'm pretty damned sure that's exactly not how Pardo, Metzen & Morhaim describe their company and their games.

Polish & "easy to learn, difficult to master" are the two things you take away from every conversation with them. Nowhere is pushing the envelope even implied in that. They didn't get to where they are by pushing the envelope, they got to where they are by creating games that lots of people can have fun playing at all skill levels.

Coincidentally, that's what the arena isn't really living up to right now. Which is probably why it's an interesting discussion, or at least was, until you two started harping at each other.

[Lost Ranger]

I won't waste my time trying to invent a new arena system because I know that I don't have that kind of know how. It is impossible to make a system everyone will be happy with I just hope that they stick to their guns on some of the new changes.

Any system that rewards players for losing/doing nothing is a VERY bad design. It cheapens the game for everyone even the person getting the free epics even if they refuse to see it now. The fact that you can get decked out in epic quality gear without a guild or a single friend in a MMO is just laughable. It completely goes against the entire purpose of playing these games. If that is what people really want then why even bother paying for a MMO? Just go load up Diablo 2 or some shit and grab a trainer program. Get all the "epics" you want without any effort at all. Sounds perfect for some of you.

[xmod2]

Originally Posted by Dumar

EXPECT more please. no, demand more.

hahahahahha

edit: it's a video game

[l0z]

Any system that rewards players for losing/doing nothing is a VERY bad design.

Not necessarily. Most long-term PvP settings understand that new players are the lifeblood of the PvP experience. Without newbies to feed on, the experienced players quickly get bored and the system eventually collapses.

If those new players are going to get their asses handed to them repeatedly, then it's probably a good idea to give them something for their troubles. Can that be exploited? Sure. So you mitigate it as much as possible - resilience was the attempted mitigation. It sucks points from the stat allotment, as do the high stamina values on PvP items.

It's not rewarding failure, it's incentivizing participation.

There are clearly a few people who don't understand that, but most experienced players (and designers) do.

[Lost Ranger]

Originally Posted by l0z

There are clearly a few people who don't understand that, but most experienced players (and designers) do.

Alright Ill play. Aside from current WoW what long term pvp setting awards failure? I have never in all the years I have done MMOs seen a system not only reward but encourage laziness like WoWs. Even games like DAoC which was all about PVP required new players to spend a shit load of time/money making sure they had a properly built set of weps/armor (which you couldnt do yourself). Just going out into the frontier with the stuff you got on the way to 50 would get you roflstomped in about 5 seconds.

So... spill you beans.

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Lost Ranger

Alright Ill play. Aside from current WoW what long term pvp setting awards failure? I have never in all the years I have done MMOs seen a system not only reward but encourage laziness like WoWs. Even games like DAoC which was all about PVP required new players to spend a shit load of time/money making sure they had a properly built set of weps/armor (which you couldnt do yourself). Just going out into the frontier with the stuff you got on the way to 50 would get you roflstomped in about 5 seconds.

So... spill you beans.

It has to reward failure or you get what you see on Stormstrike, where AV is empty.

This isn't like fucking counterstrike. It's a PORTION of a game. It's a game within a game. If you want people to keep playing THAT PORTION of the game, you need to give the losers an incentive to keep trying.

[Lost Ranger]

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

you need to give the losers an incentive to keep trying.

Yes, and the S4 system still does. You can still get S2-3 shit doing the same lame ass practices people do now. The thing that pissed me off was those people that are... offended? That they can not lose their way into S4 gear. Give people their carrot to keep playing for sure but when losing and winning all lead to the same place (even if at different speeds) then something is wrong.

[Dumar]

Originally Posted by l0z

It's not rewarding failure, it's incentivizing participation.

There are clearly a few people who don't understand that, but most experienced players (and designers) do.

experienced mmo designers? where? the industry is FULL of experienced designers making crap games and some experienced designers making good games. but experienced mmo designers? where are they?

the only successful mmo designers are either now high on opiates due to a massive failure or sold out (origin to EA) and trying to make a comeback (and an usuccessful one at that). that's it. that's really the ONLY 'experienced' successful mmo designers out there.

wow designers? they're very good game designers. but mmo designers? no.

where are these mmo designers saying this?

(they don't exist.)

[l0z]

I think looking at older MMO-PvP models is a mistake to understand what the market supports in its current state.

The idea of incentivizing participation is inherent in EVE: the better the system you hold, the better your and your alliance's income will be.

Does it "reward failure"? No. But neither can WoW give incentives to players through anything other than loot. That's the model that it is based on - gathering the 'new shiny'. EVE isn't based around that concept, and never has been, so income potential is the incentive.

Nearly all console PvP games with 'unlockables' also give incentives for just playing along, rather than only for the winners. The various Battlefields, CoD4 all simply use XP as an incentive to continue playing, which unlocks weapons. XP doesn't diminish, so as long as you keep playing, you'll eventually keep getting 'stuff' (once again: reward participation).

GuildWars is another example of a game that rewards participation with TRPs - all players, no matter how poorly they do, earn at least one TRP for playing in a tournament.

So sure, plenty of examples. I'm sure you'll be happy to do more research on the subject if you're truly interested.

Edit: snipped unnecessary comment.

[Lost Ranger]

Originally Posted by l0z

But I suspect you're actually just interested in 'being right'.

Wrong. I asked because having tried most MMOs out there I can't think of a system that awards people for losing and you said "Most long-term PvP settings..." which would imply that you had a list of MMOs that award people for doing nothing. You listed EVE, Guild Wars and then started listing first person shooters.

The current WoW system encourages people to just /sit and wait for the ownage so they can rinse/repeat 10 times a week.

Edit: took mine out too since you are trying to be civil.

[Tullaeniel]

Sorry the target demographic in test studies for Blizzard show that Timmy wants free epics for failure. So Timmy gets free epics for failure. If you are looking for the Vision in Blizzard you are looking in the wrong place. There is will no new design no new concept it will simply be what appeals to the most people, what is the most profitable.

You can see this reflected in almost every change that has come about since Vanilla WoW. MASS APPEAL is the name of the game. If mass appeal is free epics thats what it will be, If mass appeal is 10 man raids thats what it will be. If mass appeal is lame ass dailies thats again what it will be. The change in Arenas might have some merit in Blizzard wants to limit it to certain players but again mass appeal will win this one in the end. Just like retard rocks if Blizzard comes out with a shitty idea instead of scrapping it and hurting some retard's feeling who came up with the idea, they will band-aid, and adjust until it works for the masses.

WoW is shit in it's current form, and for those waiting on WoTLK for some magical expansion to fix itemization and Arenas, and Spec options with 10 levels and a fresh restart are retarded. Blizzard has moved onto to their next multi-million dollar success they will release in a few years be it World of Starcraft of whatever. You will be left with a cruise control money machine, you can come up with ideas of how to fix the system and thoughts on what would be better but they will fall on deaf ears.

The system is shit they have conditioned the players to get free badge loot and free epics for failure and easy content. You start taking it away and you'll get a backlash from the very lazy shitbag players you created. It would have been better for them not to cave in, in the first place but ever since the free epics before TBC thats what people expect don't kid yourself into thinking they will stick around after you take away the treats they have become accustomed too.

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Lost Ranger

Yes, and the S4 system still does. You can still get S2-3 shit doing the same lame ass practices people do now. The thing that pissed me off was those people that are... offended? That they can not lose their way into S4 gear. Give people their carrot to keep playing for sure but when losing and winning all lead to the same place (even if at different speeds) then something is wrong.

We've already been through this. S4 has an incentive for new characters. For anyone who's been playing awhile, has a mix of S2/S3 shit already, and for whatever reason can't hit 1700 due to wrong class, wrong comp, wrong spec, keyboard turn, etc, S4 has 2 pieces. People will get their 2 pieces and get out, or buy points or whatever because there won't be anything for them to keep working towards. Same argument, different day.