WOW, Season 4. Arena or GTFO

[GrobbeeTrull2.0]

Simple!

Give reputation for winning, take it away for losing, and then attach reputation requirements for wearing the gear! Duh.

Azerothian Gladiator's faction. Hated, Unfriendly, Neutral, Friendly, Honored, Revered, Exalted. Alter how much faction is given based on your current rating and faction.

[rangoth]

Originally Posted by Izuldan

shit

I don't arena at all so I should probably just shut the fuck up, but I hope you never have any say at all in making a game or content.

Not being able to wear gear that I earned? Now if the problem is that we think the method of earning it is "cheap" or "easy", let's address that problem. But screw you to a system that takes away my shit unless I keep playing and kicking ass all day.

[Olio]

I like WSG/BGs but despise arenas. I can only bring myself to play a losing 2v2 or 3v3 about once a month. I have zero interest in actually playing on a real team and haven't done so in over a year (end of season 1, we were up in the 1800s).

The ratings requirement for honor gear is aweful. That just leaves me honor capped with nothing to buy. Easy enough to just unsub for the summer and come back for WotLK I suppose.

PS: I'm on Cyclone. They should just dispense with the fighting part and do a gear/class check for point adjustment instead since that's how 90% of the matches play out.

[Arbitrary]

I think if you wipe to some shit you've had on farm all your gear from that encounter and beyond should become unusable.

Teach you to have a bad night.

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by Izuldan

What's wrong with that? If you are having a bad week, that means you are losing to better teams. Guess what....if you are losing when teams are "even", then you aren't really even are you? If gear is the same, then your strats are worse. So why do you get to equip the same gear as teams that beat you?

Because as my original post states, the combination is incredibly effective against my teams combination? If the players are even with us in skill, they should win most of the time. All of their tools are tailor made to shut us down, which is one of the reasons PMR is so effective, if it has a lot of tools against a lot of different team set ups, against my particular set up though its particularly effective because its high damage out put.

When my set up goes against gib teams or lock-based teams, we are particularly effective against them, because we have a lot of healing and a fear-immune damage source, if the players on both teams are even, we will win mostly. Does that mean the other team sucked? No, it meant our comp was just stronger against them. Have we run into those types of teams that crush us? Yes, I have seen some gib teams that must be mentally linked because not one cool down is blown out of order..Playing better can have a big impact, but if both players are on the same level, its going to come down to composition.

If every game was a mirror match, then you might have a fucking point, but a Warrior/Priest/Mage is not as powerful as a Priest/Mage/Rogue, they just aren't. Team 1 can still climb above 2k, simply by being very very good, but eventually you are going to meet players with even skill, when skill is even, games come down to group comp and gear, since most gear is even in those brackets, its mostly composition.

All that aside though, bad connections, someone is sick, off week, and bam, your gear is gone? Seriously, if I came off as elitist or a hard ass in my responses, your coming off as a god damn masochist.

[Izuldan]

Originally Posted by rangoth

I don't arena at all so I should probably just shut the fuck up, but I hope you never have any say at all in making a game or content.

Not being able to wear gear that I earned? Now if the problem is that we think the method of earning it is "cheap" or "easy", let's address that problem. But screw you to a system that takes away my shit unless I keep playing and kicking ass all day.

1) You should take your advice from the first part of your post.
2) Where do you go to pick up your welfare check? I'm only asking because you seem to think that once you get your shit, you should keep it forever. God forbid you actually have to keep working hard to maintain or improve your station in life (or in game). I know RL examples suck, but it's like your saying you work hard for a year, make a million dollars, buy an expensive house and car.......then you stop working. Now you still owe the mortgage on the house, you still owe car payments.....but no. You think you should still get to keep your shit right? Because at one time in your life you decided to work hard? I've always wondered how mediocre people with little to no ambition viewed life, I guess now I know, thanks Rangoth.

Originally Posted by Lithose

Because as my original post states, the combination is incredibly effective against my teams combination? If the players are even with us in skill, they should win most of the time. All of their tools are tailor made to shut us down, which is one of the reasons PMR is so effective, if it has a lot of tools against a lot of different team set ups, against my particular set up though its particularly effective because its high damage out put.

When my set up goes against gib teams or lock-based teams, we are particularly effective against them, because we have a lot of healing and a fear-immune damage source, if the players on both teams are even, we will win mostly. Does that mean the other team sucked? No, it meant our comp was just stronger against them. Have we run into those types of teams that crush us? Yes, I have seen some gib teams that must be mentally linked because not one cool down is blown out of order..Playing better can have a big impact, but if both players are on the same level, its going to come down to composition.

If every game was a mirror match, then you might have a fucking point, but a Warrior/Priest/Mage is not as powerful as a Priest/Mage/Rogue, they just aren't. Team 1 can still climb above 2k, simply by being very very good, but eventually you are going to meet players with even skill, when skill is even, games come down to group comp and gear, since most gear is even in those brackets, its mostly composition.

Obviously some combinations play better than others. You keep bringing up PMR like it's never been beat before. Truth is, certain combinations are shown to work well because talented players play them, they get ranked really high, others see it and think "ooh....that must be a powerful combo!" and then imitate it. I'm guessing a talented WPM team such as yourself will occasionally run into a shitty PMR team and beat them. Now, if that NEVER happens, then either 1) you really are shitty, or 2) PMR really is overpowered. In which case......reform your group? Switch out your warrior for a rogue? Come up with another strategy you don't happen to just read on EJ?

There are always going to be effective counters to any group make-up, and even if something becomes overpowered, then you know Blizzard is going hit it with the nerf-stick, so it's not like it's going to last forever.

Originally Posted by Lithose

All that aside though, bad connections, someone is sick, off week, and bam, your gear is gone? Seriously, if I came off as elitist or a hard ass in my responses, your coming off as a god damn masochist.

All your gear is gone? Seriously? We are talking about ONE OR TWO slots at most if you are anywhere decent.

And again.....if ratings were fixed on the items....you wouldn't have those S3 (soon to be S4) geared groups roflstomping your ass in the 1600-2000 bracket, because they would be stupid to risk their ranking bringing some scrub up. The first time they drop below 2200 and lose the ability to wear their shoulders is probably the last time they decide to sell a spot on their team.

[rangoth]

Originally Posted by Izuldan

1) You should take your advice from the first part of your post.
2) Where do you go to pick up your welfare check? I'm only asking because you seem to think that once you get your shit, you should keep it forever. God forbid you actually have to keep working hard to maintain or improve your station in life (or in game). I know RL examples suck, but it's like your saying you work hard for a year, make a million dollars, buy an expensive house and car.......then you stop working. Now you still owe the mortgage on the house, you still owe car payments.....but no. You think you should still get to keep your shit right? Because at one time in your life you decided to work hard? I've always wondered how mediocre people with little to no ambition viewed life, I guess now I know, thanks Rangoth.

Obviously some combinations play better than others. You keep bringing up PMR like it's never been beat before. Truth is, certain combinations are shown to work well because talented players play them, they get ranked really high, others see it and think "ooh....that must be a powerful combo!" and then imitate it. I'm guessing a talented WPM team such as yourself will occasionally run into a shitty PMR team and beat them. Now, if that NEVER happens, then either 1) you really are shitty, or 2) PMR really is overpowered. In which case......reform your group? Switch out your warrior for a rogue? Come up with another strategy you don't happen to just read on EJ?

There are always going to be effective counters to any group make-up, and even if something becomes overpowered, then you know Blizzard is going hit it with the nerf-stick, so it's not like it's going to last forever.

All your gear is gone? Seriously? We are talking about ONE OR TWO slots at most if you are anywhere decent.

And again.....if ratings were fixed on the items....you wouldn't have those S3 (soon to be S4) geared groups roflstomping your ass in the 1600-2000 bracket, because they would be stupid to risk their ranking bringing some scrub up. The first time they drop below 2200 and lose the ability to wear their shoulders is probably the last time they decide to sell a spot on their team.

I apologize, you are correct that I am on welfare. I am so used to everyone just handing me shit in life, including my parents who still pay for my rent, car insurance, and groceries. But since your RL examples are flawed and you are a fucking retard I will respond anyway(plus I like the forum abuse, it gets my rocks off).

If I work, make a million and buy a house and car, guess what....there is no fucking mortgage, I bought it. I didn't take a loan out.

Not to mention this is a game, if I work hard and earn a piece of gear I should not have to repeat the same actions that got me that gear for the rest of my entire gaming career in order to use them....seriously, can you be that obtuse?

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by Izuldan

Obviously some combinations play better than others. You keep bringing up PMR like it's never been beat before. Truth is, certain combinations are shown to work well because talented players play them, they get ranked really high, others see it and think "ooh....that must be a powerful combo!" and then imitate it. I'm guessing a talented WPM team such as yourself will occasionally run into a shitty PMR team and beat them. Now, if that NEVER happens, then either 1) you really are shitty, or 2) PMR really is overpowered. In which case......reform your group? Switch out your warrior for a rogue? Come up with another strategy you don't happen to just read on EJ?

There are always going to be effective counters to any group make-up, and even if something becomes overpowered, then you know Blizzard is going hit it with the nerf-stick, so it's not like it's going to last forever.

I bring up PMR because its the most widely used team above 2k in the 3v3, and I am not on a WMP team, it was an example.

As for "reforming" the group, I am the warrior, that would make things a little difficult, yes? We can deal with PMR's on my team, they are effective against us and given even skill will win, but like you said, we always find some that are up there just because they are PMR. This isn't a whine about how "opd" they are, its a fucking incredulous post about how you would base the loss of gear off complete random chance.

If the arena game was a total-meta game, only matching against same type make ups or what not, then you could have such extreme "penalties" for losses, however, as you said, sometimes you just run into those comps that you can't defeat given equal skill. Now over time, this doesn't mean shit, because you can gain wins against "worse" players and against other team sets, however, since rating is a "snap" shot of a small portion of games, over time really doesn't work, does it?

All your gear is gone? Seriously? We are talking about ONE OR TWO slots at most if you are anywhere decent.

One of which happens to be the fucking weapon slot, which will be 2050 in s4, so if we run into, say, Hunter/Lock/Paladin, which is almost impossible for us to beat with our set up (We have to play perfect, they have to be horrible), and drop from 2060, to 2045, we deserve to be at a disadvantage against potentially the same fucking team next time because I can't use my god damn weapon? Are you fucking crazy?

And again.....if ratings were fixed on the items....you wouldn't have those S3 (soon to be S4) geared groups roflstomping your ass in the 1600-2000 bracket, because they would be stupid to risk their ranking bringing some scrub up. The first time they drop below 2200 and lose the ability to wear their shoulders is probably the last time they decide to sell a spot on their team.

Unless they form an extremely over powered 2v2, set their 2200 there and point sell in 5v5? You know, like everyone does?

Hey, how about when you fail a quest, you are never allowed to complete it, or if a mob kills you that you got loot from, you lose it! Your right, this fucking game in your masochistic candy land sounds fantastic, where do I sign up?!

[Araxen]

Since coming back in December I find the BG's alot more enjoyable now that I can actually get something from them without having to invest 10 hour days. If I have to keep plugging away and play 8-10 hours like the BG's were in the beginning to get Arena gear...Fuck that noise. WoW is a casual game and I shouldn't have to put up with that type of grind. EQ1 maybe I would but not in WoW. I'll just stick raiding PvE stuff if that ends up being the case. It's alot more fun and I don't have pull my hair out.

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by Izuldan

1) You should take your advice from the first part of your post.
2) Where do you go to pick up your welfare check? I'm only asking because you seem to think that once you get your shit, you should keep it forever. God forbid you actually have to keep working hard to maintain or improve your station in life (or in game). I know RL examples suck, but it's like your saying you work hard for a year, make a million dollars, buy an expensive house and car.......then you stop working. Now you still owe the mortgage on the house, you still owe car payments.....but no. You think you should still get to keep your shit right? Because at one time in your life you decided to work hard? I've always wondered how mediocre people with little to no ambition viewed life, I guess now I know, thanks Rangoth.

Wait a second, I get it, your trolling right, right? Because thats about the worst example I have ever seen, anywhere, in my entire life, and I work around lawyers, who are the bad example kings, but this one is epic.

haha though, jokes on me, right? Obviously your trying to show me what its like to deal with an even more elitist asshole then I am coming off as, right? Because its funny, if you are, if not, well, sir, I too hope you never, ever design a game.

[Draegan]

I'm so happy we've graduated from AV bitchfests.

Arena is the new AV!

[Izuldan]

Originally Posted by rangoth

I apologize, you are correct that I am on welfare. I am so used to everyone just handing me shit in life, including my parents who still pay for my rent, car insurance, and groceries. But since your RL examples are flawed and you are a fucking retard I will respond anyway(plus I like the forum abuse, it gets my rocks off).

If I work, make a million and buy a house and car, guess what....there is no fucking mortgage, I bought it. I didn't take a loan out.

Not to mention this is a game, if I work hard and earn a piece of gear I should not have to repeat the same actions that got me that gear for the rest of my entire gaming career in order to use them....seriously, can you be that obtuse?

No need to apologize because you're using your parents as your welfare system. You should apologize though for failing to understand even the most fundamental aspects of what it means to be elite, to be ahead in life, let alone in a game.

You are right, you could have spent your million dollars to buy your house outright - no mortgage. What you don't seem to realize, being that your parents probably pay for all your serious expenses, is that living an opulent lifestyle requires money to maintain that lifestyle.

So while you live in a million dollar house....you still have bills to pay. Gas, electric, phone, cable, whatever. All of that is PEANUTS compared to your tax burden. On a million dollar house, you are looking at $20,000 a year roughly for property taxes alone. That $250,000 car you bought outright? Same thing. Insurance and maintenence is gonna get you. An oil change can run you $1,000 to $2,000. If you think I'm making that up, then you aren't in the exotic car market. Tires will easily run you that same amount.

In other words.....unless you maintain a certain degree of wealth, you will not be able to keep your "items", be it your big house or car. So you keep working hard, keep making a good living, and you get to keep your nice things. You stop working, you stop making a good income, then you get fucked and you are going to lose those "items"; doesn't matter even with your "omg, I already paid for them" mentality.

That's the example. In WoW, you keep the high rating, you keep your nicest items. You get to wear the shoulder item. That should be a badge of honor to wear, not something you see because someone bought their way on a team to get it.

The whole game doesn't break because you cant maintain a 2200+ rating. There is still plenty else in the game to enjoy. Not having that single item isn't going to ruin the game for you. If it does, if arena shit matters that much to you, then commit yourself to it to be the best. If you fall short, how is it that much different than your RL? Honestly? People like Lithose, who "works with lawyers" (i.e., works with people more educated and richer than he is....because if he was smart and was interested in law, wouldn't he have gone to law school to become a lawyer instead of being a lawyer's peon?).

There is enough in WoW already where shit is handed to you left and right with little need for any sort of skill or talent. You could accummulate badges all day running Kara or other menial shit and be in T5/6 equivalent gear. You could AFK your way through BGs all day long and be in complete S1 (soon to be S2) gear.

Save something for people who want to differentiate themselves from the masses. This is only ONE ASPECT of the game, so save yourself the whole "I hope you don't design games" argument, because it's stupid when it doesn't even relate to the whole game.

I'm not on a 2100+ rated arena team. I don't think I ever will be, nor do I care to be. However, for those who can maintain a 2100+ rating, I think they deserve something to differentiate themselves. Is that too hard to fathom? So what if I can't wear that S4 shoulder item; I would rather NOT wear the shoulder item and have those on the top tiers only wearing them....than having every other person buying their way to S4 shoulders. Perhaps you are having difficulty seeing beyond your own personal needs or limitations, I dunno. For me, I would love to see those who really dedicate themselves to the game achieve the greatest rewards, even if I never get to see those rewards for myself....maybe I'm just an old EQ nostalgiac?

[column]

TEXT WALL!! wtf

[Makata]

Looks like I'm late to this party (a pvp thread no less, I must be slacking).

The changes are fucking stupid. I could go off on a tangent saying arena isn't real pvp but I won't. I could go off on a tangent about point/rating sellers but I won't. I could spew alot of bullshit, but I'll just go with this: the game is meant to be fun. Fun, in terms of pvp, to most people is going to be a combination of 2 things. Loots and victories. You're certainly not doing alot of the latter as long as sellers stay in the system and now you're practically taking away the loot too.

Dear Blizzard, if arena actually worked out to the near zero sum system that it's supposed to be, the average rating for all people would be 1500, which is less than any rated item. Even if you want to throw out some random numbers and say 1600 is an "average" then that still leaves only 3 non-rated items and what, 2 rated ones? Are you serious?

There is no basis for this change at all. Weapons are the only items which have any impact on pve and instead of actually nerfing them for pve usage (not saying its necessarily the right thing to do) they just make sure hardly anyone can get them. The only class that can conceivably get enough use out of arena/honor gear in pve to justify concern is a tanking druid. Everyone else needs fuck all in terms of pvp gear in pve. And how many people will simply not bother to queue with this system? There HAS to be low rated people Blizzard. You're FORCING a certain percentage of the player base to have no access to most of s4 gear. What .. the .. fuck?

In conclusion I need only say this: I can get the 2nd best rogue leggings in the game just by clearing karazhan 5 times. Any possible arguments of who deserves what based off of skill or whatever else crumble with this 1 statement.

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by Makata

In conclusion I need only say this: I can get the 2nd best rogue leggings in the game just by clearing karazhan 5 times. Any possible arguments of who deserves what based off of skill or whatever else crumble with this 1 statement.

Except the fact that the second best PvP rogue legs can be gotten with losing every arena game?

See what I did there?

Edit:Just to be safe, I will explain..You noted the second best set of PvE legs could be gotten by a group of brain dead idiots running Kara, I agree. What you fail to mention is the second best PvP legs can be gotten by a group of brain dead morons losing in the arena.