[WOW] Glider author lawsuit

[Mkopec1]

But it can still be argued and im sure it will. Evidene that blizzard has is not solid either. A survey taken at quitting is neither scientific nor does it really reperesent anything. For one, I remember last time I quit I just randomly chose one on the list.

I will also add that this is a dumb move on blizz part. They have alot more to lose than to try an make an example out of this dude. Because if this dude loses he closes down and maybe pays some restitution. On the other hand if Blizz loses it opens a can of worms for Blizz. and Wow, and any other MMORPG which will have legal bots running around without recourse.

[findar]

if they win its more then just shutting down glider. it gives them permission to stop anyone(and other companies down the line to do the same)

[Arbitrary]

It would give them permission only where that court has jurisdiction.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Mkopec1

I will also add that this is a dumb move on blizz part. They have alot more to lose than to try an make an example out of this dude. Because if this dude loses he closes down and maybe pays some restitution. On the other hand if Blizz loses it opens a can of worms for Blizz. and Wow, and any other MMORPG which will have legal bots running around without recourse.

It will set a precedent, and while this ruling may not hold sway in other jurisdictions it will be brought up as citation for the next judge in said district to consider.

It's a very risky move, on that you are right. If Blizzard loses this could help botters and goldfarmers and hackers and cheaters gain a foothold in the MMO gamespace. On the flip side, if Blizz wins it would give them and other developers some legal recourse in fighting them and hitting the cheaters hard with fines, restitutions and more.

Of course none of that will matter when the 3rd party peoples operate outside of the U.S.

[TKarrde]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

It will set a precedent, and while this ruling may not hold sway in other jurisdictions it will be brought up as citation for the next judge in said district to consider.

It's a very risky move, on that you are right. If Blizzard loses this could help botters and goldfarmers and hackers and cheaters gain a foothold in the MMO gamespace. On the flip side, if Blizz wins it would give them and other developers some legal recourse in fighting them and hitting the cheaters hard with fines, restitutions and more.

Of course none of that will matter when the 3rd party peoples operate outside of the U.S.

The danger is that it sets a very dumb precedent technologically. Saying that copying a program installed on your computer legitimately into the RAM is copyright infringement is a very bad thing for developers. It gives them pretty much zero ability to work with things and extend them. Look at Windower, for Final Fantasy XI. For years, there was not an option to run FFXI in windowed mode. Windower would launch the program in windowed mode. But if Blizzard wins this case, that would be copyright infringement - but all it was launch the game with a very slight modification.

You still need WoW installed to run Glider. All Glider does is launch WoW, and send commands to it. But the copying into the ram - all it does is launch WoW. It doesn't just create a WoW process inside itself and leave you with just the glider window - it launches WoW, and injects a DLL so that it can send in commands.

But what Blizzard is suing for is simply launching WoW. That's it.

It's not simply a matter of Blizzard vs. cheaters, it's a matter of a ridiculous lawsuit being used against cheaters, that while it would have short term benefit, would long term harm developers of all kinds.

Edit: Also, being outside the US isn't any safety. The US has a long history of arresting people for doing things perfectly legal in their country when they step foot in the US. DeCSS author, anyone? Guy writes a DVD decryption program in whatever country he lives in, later on goes to the US for vacation, gets arrested at the airport - even though he had done nothing illegal in his home country where the action took place!

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by brekk

Having heard of it, and understanding the inner workings of the game and the detriment a bot can cause on the economy is very different. If they've heard of WoW they likely still think of it as one of those "silly video games" and nothing more.

And i would frankly likely to see the actual number of people quitting solely because of botting. I frankly couldn't care less. In fact they can be entertaining if you find one, trying your hardest to get them killed can be hilarious.

Except thats what voir dire is for. You can bet your ass that Vivendi will want that jury stacked with people who know what WoW is. And rightfully so. I wouldn't want some jackass who's whole idea of "video gaming" is solitaire on his wife's Dell deciding whats best for my game.

Assuming it does go to a jury trial:

theres a thing called "jury instruction". And you can bet your ass that they'll take full advantage of it to paint a clear picture of how they intended for players to play thier game. I'd expect nothing less than a full blown live gameplay presentation. Any douchebag whining that "it takes too long to catch up with my friends", in WoW of all games, is nothing more than a lazy piece of shit. Play the fucking game or get the fuck out. Its not like its hard or anything.

[Antoine]

Originally Posted by Rayne

Except thats what voir dire is for. You can bet your ass that Vivendi will want that jury stacked with people who know what WoW is. And rightfully so. I wouldn't want some jackass who's whole idea of "video gaming" is solitaire on his wife's Dell deciding whats best for my game.

Assuming it does go to a jury trial:

theres a thing called "jury instruction". And you can bet your ass that they'll take full advantage of it to paint a clear picture of how they intended for players to play thier game. I'd expect nothing less than a full blown live gameplay presentation. Any douchebag whining that "it takes too long to catch up with my friends", in WoW of all games, is nothing more than a lazy piece of shit. Play the fucking game or get the fuck out. Its not like its hard or anything.

Unrelated, but that site has the worst layout I've seen since 1998.

[chu]

Originally Posted by Mkopec1

But it can still be argued and im sure it will. Evidene that blizzard has is not solid either. A survey taken at quitting is neither scientific nor does it really reperesent anything. For one, I remember last time I quit I just randomly chose one on the list.

I will also add that this is a dumb move on blizz part. They have alot more to lose than to try an make an example out of this dude. Because if this dude loses he closes down and maybe pays some restitution. On the other hand if Blizz loses it opens a can of worms for Blizz. and Wow, and any other MMORPG which will have legal bots running around without recourse.

But it can't be proven and that's final.

[Deris]

I wonder how much Blizzard is paying their security and warden developers yearly to combat Glider. That is a cost that can be proven. Not to mention they can cite other MMO's having rampant botting lead to mass quitting as evidence of what botting does to a game.

[Hachima]

Originally Posted by Deris

I wonder how much Blizzard is paying their security and warden developers yearly to combat Glider. That is a cost that can be proven. Not to mention they can cite other MMO's having rampant botting lead to mass quitting as evidence of what botting does to a game.

Is that really relevant? If I steal a candy bar at 7-11, do I become liable for the costs of their video surveillance systems?

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Deris

You know how when you deactivate WoW, you get a "Why are you quitting?" box?

I'm willing to bet at LEAST 5,000 people input "Because of bots" in there somewhere. Open and shut case, Glider is causing Blizzard -revenue.

Actually, its over 465,000 "formal complaints" that Blizzard alledges in thier summary judgement motion. You can read the motions from both sides here.

Originally Posted by Hachima

Is that really relevant? If I steal a candy bar at 7-11, do I become liable for the costs of their video surveillance systems?

Yes, it is. The circumstance of your comparison is whats irrelevant. However, if you steal that same candy bar at gunpoint, and some old lady standing next to you has a heart attack, you are responsible if she dies as an effect of your action, whether or not you "intended" to do her any harm. MDY "knew" that Glider could be used in ways they may or may not have intended, but they continued to sell it anyway.

[Froofy-D]

Originally Posted by Antoine

Unrelated, but that site has the worst layout I've seen since 1998.

Lol it looks like it was created in MS Frontpage 97 optimized for 640*480 resolution.

[Daerath]

Originally Posted by Rayne

Actually, its over 465,000 "formal complaints" that Blizzard alledges in thier summary judgement motion. You can read the motions from both sides here.

What the WoW Glider guy needs to do is suponea all of those complaints and total up how many are for specific botters. Then look at the time it took for Blizzard to ban those accounts. I suspect in many cases it took Blizzard months to ban the account, which is not what you do if something is causing serious harm to the game. Their usual policy seems to be "I'll kick them off and whenever the guy behind the bot notices he'll log back on, but by then the person who complained will have moved on."

I'd bet that those 465000 complains are not centered on an equal number of bots.

[Zorlac]

Originally Posted by TKarrde

Edit: Also, being outside the US isn't any safety. The US has a long history of arresting people for doing things perfectly legal in their country when they step foot in the US. DeCSS author, anyone? Guy writes a DVD decryption program in whatever country he lives in, later on goes to the US for vacation, gets arrested at the airport - even though he had done nothing illegal in his home country where the action took place!

Jon Lech Johansen moved to the US a few years ago for a job (he moved back to Norway since). He was one of the DeCSS developers. AFAIK he was never arrested in the US but in Norway, and freed and cleared of charges of course. He reverse engineered a bunch of other DRM stuff since then like Fairplay, Play4Sure and other stuff.

I think you are thinking about the Dmitry Sklyarov who was arrested in the US at some conference for reverse engineering some Adobe shit.

[Bongk]

Originally Posted by chu

But it can't be proven and that's final.

you dont have to "prove" anything in civil court. Did the browns "prove" OJ killed nicole brown? It is all based on the preponderance (sp) of evidence.