[WOW] Glider author lawsuit

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Kheldin

When they ban a botting farmer, they just gain themselves a new subscription fee and a new box sale.

This cannot be proven though, and it would be the burden of the defendent to do so... which would be impossible. Blizzard isn't going to argue this point against themselves in a court of law.

The CSR point is a good one though. If they have to hire even a handful of CSR reps to deal with the extra load that botter petitions create then that's another expense that Glider may have to contend with. Even at 30k a year it adds up quickly.

If this is a civil case then they don't need 100% reasonable doubt, just enough doubt that the judge/jury believes botting hurts the game and costs Blizzard money.

[brekk]

Originally Posted by Malakriss

Hacking SC/WC3, Account Automation for WoW/EQ/EVE, Modding an Xbox, or tampering with TV provider's STB all falls under the same category IMHO.

You're blurring two different things.

Hacking SC/WC3 was to circumvent paying blizzard and buying legit copies.
Tampering with STB was to avoid paying cable companies.

Both have lead to lawsuits the companies have won.

Automated accounts in WoW/EQ/EVE have lead to bannings.
Xbox modding has lead to bannings.

Why? because they still require buying of the original product. Otherwise microsoft would've sued companies making the mod chips.

[Hachima]

Originally Posted by Itzena

And to elaborate further, Blizzard's own EULAs have legal precedent.
See: bnetd.

Also, here's a slightly less biased source than the cheater's own forums: MDY v Blizzard: Place Your Bets « Broken Toys

If you want to look at anything with precedent that shows its not a copyright violation with cheating look at. It even goes on to say even if they did generate a derivitive work it may be considered fair use. So even if Glider copied it into ram it may be considered fair use based off this case. Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc. (Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, 1992) was a court case which established the rights of users to modify copyrighted works for their own use.

"Having paid Nintendo a fair return, the consumer may experiment with the product and create new variations of play, for personal enjoyment, without creating a derivative work."

[Tolanin]

its gonna be a different argument now though because of the online collective nature of the game. Game genie would have been pretty much impossible for nintendo to prove damages from, glider its gonna be fairly easy to show damages and easy for the jurors to understand how cheating in a competitive game isnt the same as cheating in a non competitive game... its like arguing that because its ok to cheat at solitaire it should be ok to throw baseball games.

[Mkopec1]

There is no stakes and nothing riding on the gameplay though. Competative how? Better loot? Better PvP? Competing with who? WoW is not a contest and definitely not governed by the fair gaming commission. Only case Blizz has is to prove that they are losing subscriptions directly because of botting. And thats a hard thing to prove.

This is of course based on my poinion which has absolutely no law experience other than TV

[Arbitrary]

Originally Posted by Tolanin

its like arguing that because its ok to cheat at solitaire it should be ok to throw baseball games.

Jurors are not going to connect WoW to professional sports or anything of that seriousness. It is much more likely they will think of cheating in WoW like cheating in solitare, i.e. masturbation.

[Deris]

You know how when you deactivate WoW, you get a "Why are you quitting?" box?

I'm willing to bet at LEAST 5,000 people input "Because of bots" in there somewhere. Open and shut case, Glider is causing Blizzard -revenue.

[Kheldin]

Botters flood the AH and make things cheaper for me. I don't see what them playing in some shitty casual zone has any affect on me in an instance. And if they want to PVP it's a free win.

[Wilfan]

Originally Posted by Deris

You know how when you deactivate WoW, you get a "Why are you quitting?" box?

I'm willing to bet at LEAST 5,000 people input "Because of bots" in there somewhere. Open and shut case, Glider is causing Blizzard -revenue.

Yes, and some people entered "LOTRO", "new job" or "girlfriend". Just showing that your business suffered is not enough to win a case.

[Gnome Eater]

Originally Posted by Wilfan

Yes, and some people entered "LOTRO", "new job" or "girlfriend". Just showing that your business suffered is not enough to win a case.

What, why not? You have no right to play Blizzard's game, it is a priviledge.

Botters make the game less fun for everyone around them, and the more bots become pervasive, the worst it becomes.

For example - imagine that botting becomes legal, and everyone does it. Now Blizzard can either balance the game around the assumption that everyone will bot to level, and make a levelling curve that makes L2 look like a joke or they can make a levelling curve that is balanced around non-botters, which will mean that botters consume the content at a much higher rate.

Or worst yet - repair costs. Assume everyone bots for gold for reparis - now Blizzard has to make vendor repair costs balanced around the gold income that a botter that is botting 24/7 when not raiding earns to curb inflation. They also have to have enough content assuming a 24/7 uptime of all accounts.

Botting only has a relatively small impact if the numbers are kept very very low, and keeping them low is a huge expense for blizzard.

[Wilfan]

Originally Posted by Gnome Eater

What, why not? You have no right to play Blizzard's game, it is a priviledge.

Yes, but they're suing the bot maker, not the players that use it. Similar difference as suing cliffnotes.com (well, a paysite version of it) instead of expelling the cheating student.

[TKarrde]

Originally Posted by Deris

You know how when you deactivate WoW, you get a "Why are you quitting?" box?

I'm willing to bet at LEAST 5,000 people input "Because of bots" in there somewhere. Open and shut case, Glider is causing Blizzard -revenue.

So if 5,000 people quit and say "Because I decided to play Call of Duty 4 instead", they can now sue Activision?

And the bot maker doesn't even have to agree to the EULA. He can create the program without ever entering WoW.

And having something copied into the RAM is hardly copyright infringement, and Blizzard saying it is is completely ridiculous. In fact, I have to say as much as I hate botters, that I sincerely hope Blizzard loses this case, because setting the precedent that being copied into the ram = infringement is downright dangerous for computer technology as a whole. Especially if that what's being copied into the RAM is something that, if launched a different way, would have been completely illegal.

The fact of the matter is, suing someone for creating a product like this is downright frightening. Should we start suing people for making a trainer for the latest and greatest Need for Speed game? Furthermore, on the "bots make players leave, lol!", should we start suing the people who get banned for griefing? Harassment? General douchebaggery?

Botters suck. But just ban them, instead of suing the guy making a bot. The entire situation is ridiculous.

[Surreal]

Originally Posted by Deris

You know how when you deactivate WoW, you get a "Why are you quitting?" box?

I'm willing to bet at LEAST 5,000 people input "Because of bots" in there somewhere. Open and shut case, Glider is causing Blizzard -revenue.

5,000 out of 9,000,000 isnt going to be enough to claim it hurt your business. If it was the number one overriding factor then you would have an argument.

Part of me thinks the whole lawsuit is a dog and pony show just to make the Blizzard customer think they are doing something about it. They catch a botter then ban him and that does not solve the problem. The botter buys another account, a game card and he is back in business. Win Win for Blizzard. The lawsuit might deter some people from starting to bot but not everyone.

To play devils advocate maybe botting is good for WoW and Blizzard knows it, its their dirty little secret. All the gold farmers are botting. They sell their gold to players for RL cash. The player buys the gold because he/she wants things they may not have time/ability to aquire but guess what, they are still playing. Id imagine their is a portion of those people that would eventually quit because they dont want to farm, cant get uber sword of death and destruction or just cant afford the resources in game they want but they can with real cash. Instead they are still playing an paying Blizzard.

No matter how you slice it Blizzard is getting paid and thats the name of the game.

Botters have never ruined gameplay for me, in fact I would rather have a bot running than some asian gold farmer playing and telling me, "no play, me area" and having him attack me constantly to get me to go away. A bot you just kill and move on and hell if they have their bot set to ghost back and rezz you can farm for honor

[Wilfan]

Originally Posted by TKarrde

And having something copied into the RAM is hardly copyright infringement, and Blizzard saying it is is completely ridiculous.

My memory is pretty hazy about this one, but wasn't there a big commotion about 10 years ago when a new EU copyright directive was about to outlaw temporary copies, such as browser cache files, as a breach of copyright. Not explicitly, but copying was defined very broadly. Thankfully, the directive reformulated so the disaster was narrowly averted.

I don't know any US law specifics or precedents about this aspect, though.

[Lenardo]

i'll be interested in how this turns out.

in my opinion, blizzard will win, but that is my -average player with some common sense- opinion.