WoW Going EQ in terms of loot

[Dumar]

Originally Posted by Kaxmax

Please post some real world evidence of this technology.

i dunno why you think some revolutionary tech is necessary. look at halaa. that's a start. the tech for this doesn't need to be groundbreaking. the problem isn't the tech; it's the DESIGN.

the only thing i would add techwise is more rigorous AI.

[yknits]

Originally Posted by Kaxmax

And what's the point? Something that everyone who has ever raided in any game already knew? You mean the boss does the same thing every time (with a few exceptions in WoW), and if we execute our strat we'll win? Holy fucking revelation Batman.

Except he was not talking about execution of strats but rather that mods like Big wigs and Deadly Boss mods allow for little to no experience or research in order to jump into a fight.

These are computer programs. At some point it's going to boil down to 1's and 0's, there's simply no getting around that. We all get that Dumar wants some hugely random complex intertwined system, we're all just realistic enough to know that technologically we're not there yet. Can you honestly disagree with that?

Stating that technology is not there yet and citing examples are two different things. If you had said that games are not yet programmed to utilize multicore technology efficiently, that would be different. Everything may be split down to 1's and 0's but the basics are not the issues. Vanguard is one of the first games to attempt to offshoot processing to a separate core(their use of cloaks and clothing). But technology does not limit all game design decisions. Loot is not something that is determined, usually, by hardware. Decisions regarding loot do not boil down to 1's and 0's. Bad decisions in this department are just plain bad decisions.

Dumar doesn't like raiding, and doesn't like WoW, everyone gets that. He wants UO back, without realizing that UO is a game that very few people want to play. I loved UO, but I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole in today.

So he does not like raiding. Is this a raiding board anymore? Last I checked this was an MMO dicsussion board. I loved UO as well. No I will not go back... ever. But I can see the relevence of bringing it into the discussion every now and again.

Look at the EQ AA thread. Filled with good info. There are several threads on this board which still shine in the extra effort. I just wish the mouth breather's would stop posting shit posts.

Its the equivelent of "first" or "in before the lock." It is a fucking joke. Like a pack of mindless minions.

[Kaxmax]

Originally Posted by Dumar

i dunno why you think some revolutionary tech is necessary. look at halaa. that's a start. the tech for this doesn't need to be groundbreaking. the problem isn't the tech; it's the DESIGN.

the only thing i would add techwise is more rigorous AI.

I actually agree completely that WoW could use more open world PVP, if you know my history here I've long been a proponent of PVP over PVE. I'm not sure how that applies to dynamic PVE raid encounters though, which is what I thought we were discussing.

[Malice]

Originally Posted by Roa

Okay, so imagine a raid boss that's a rather random encounter. Today he's just a tank and spank. Tomorrow he does shadowbolt vollies every 30 seconds that regen 5% of his health each time. The day after he death-touches someone every 45 seconds (hope it's not your tank!) and the day after he has a 3 minute hard enrage timer. Sure, your encounters are random but nobody plays your fucking game because your boss fights randomness make it damn near impossible to plan for, on top of completely throwing off the the challange/time invested = reward idea. Some limited randomness might be a neat idea, but the whole "What will the boss do today in this crazy, random world of ours?" is a great way to piss off your players.

Though I'm sure Dumar will say that I didn't plan my randomness correctly or something, even though he refuses to enlighten us what correct is unless someone pays him.

You mean, like Chromaggus?

[yknits]

Originally Posted by Kaxmax

I actually agree completely that WoW could use more open world PVP, if you know my history here I've long been a proponent of PVP over PVE. I'm not sure how that applies to dynamic PVE raid encounters though, which is what I thought we were discussing.

What we were discussing was mudflation, wow's loot system moving more towards an EQ1 style loot system and the ramifications of doing so.

[Dyscord]

As a WoW player, randomness fucking BLOWS. They add a small element of randomness to all encounters. It doesn't make anything fun. It just makes it gay.

The randomness can create either a doable if not difficult encounter, it creates incredibly fagotry that leads to an incredibly difficult time or a flat out wipe. Its not fun at all fighting a mob over and over and over again because you get unlucky from the random elements.

Kalecgos for example, is quite a novel and difficult encounter. But its got a lot of randomness involved. The mechanic involving timed portal spawns to survive the AE damage is interesting, but when he 'randomly' doesn't spawn portals for a long time, the fight becomes near impossible. And quite frankly, thats no fun.

[Lyenae]

Originally Posted by Roa

Okay, so imagine a raid boss that's a rather random encounter. Today he's just a tank and spank. Tomorrow he does shadowbolt vollies every 30 seconds that regen 5% of his health each time. The day after he death-touches someone every 45 seconds (hope it's not your tank!) and the day after he has a 3 minute hard enrage timer. Sure, your encounters are random but nobody plays your fucking game because your boss fights randomness make it damn near impossible to plan for, on top of completely throwing off the the challange/time invested = reward idea. Some limited randomness might be a neat idea, but the whole "What will the boss do today in this crazy, random world of ours?" is a great way to piss off your players.

Though I'm sure Dumar will say that I didn't plan my randomness correctly or something, even though he refuses to enlighten us what correct is unless someone pays him.

Nice post, it embodies why just about everyone on this fucking thread is a mindless half-twit who's content to let MMO's stale out with predictability.

It's cool to like that "planning" shit where somehow encounters should be orchestral symphonies rehearsed/redone ad hoc (so anti-RPG btw) and not fucking ENCOUNTERS where you need to make on the spot decisions and adjustments to react to unexpected complications.

That's your business and guess what, any schleps fresh out of Gibbs can bake that shit into an MMO so you'll be happy. You'll have shit to play your whole life. Grats.

There's another crowd of people who wants more, and another larger amount who aren't even aware that it could happen. I've seen predictable boss fights for 10 fucking years. They added scripts, few shitty curveballs, That's fucking it? That's the best you can do in the tech world with 10 fucking years (possibly 15 if I MUD'd before eq?)

I don't even know what's more ridiculous, the fact that innovation hasn't happened, or you monkeys parading on these boards like innovation requires 50 IBM bluegenes and 3000 asian programmers in a sweat shop to code for.

[Malice]

The mistake made in EQ was that stats had a cap, so it didn't mean shit if your new bracer had +50 to every stat, the only stats that mattered with Focus Effect (if any, and only if it was better than what you had), HP, AC, and Mana. All the other shit became /twirl after it was capped. WoW has no known caps on any stats so even a few stat points is an upgrade. Granted, I do believe they need to make some more innovations with stats and upgrades.

[Roa]

Hey, it's another "Randomness is cruise control for awesome" retard who talks about visions of grandeur without explaining how they even would intend for them to work.

WoW is shit? Please please please make the McDonalds comparison so I can die a happy man.

[Dumar]

Originally Posted by Kaxmax

I actually agree completely that WoW could use more open world PVP, if you know my history here I've long been a proponent of PVP over PVE. I'm not sure how that applies to dynamic PVE raid encounters though, which is what I thought we were discussing.

like i said, it's a very complex problem that permeates through all levels of the game design. you can't just single out a part and say, "how would this be different?" well, the whole game would be different from the ground up, so a puzzle piece we're talking about would make the most sense in the right puzzle. a mmo design is like a giant machine, every part depending on or being relational to all other. single and limited multiplayer games (like wow) don't need these huge design undertakings because single player games are single, and wow just throws the neighborhood out with the bathwater as a solution. ie, gutting the massively outta massively multiplayer.

the main problem here is that people don't think enough. they don't think about potential, design, or what it takes to get the most out of either. when i say i want a dynamic experience, the most one can get from that statement is "randomly giving a dragon different abilities each week". duh cmon, you can wrack your brain and see the potential of a MASSIVELY multiplayer game moreso than that.

what i want is an extremely open ended game with millions of different objectives that aren't discretely defined. this would be coupled to an extremely varied skill system that governs tons of interactions in the world. that is, an objective could be to build a player town to compete with a neighbor's town but the game doesn't explicitly define it as so. imagine building a halaa. and likewise, there has to be player loss. your halaa can be destroyed, taken over, or somesuch. as for npcs, the ai would have to drastically improve. certains types of npcs could have characteristics, and the randommess might come from an amalgamation of two or more types of npcs, for example, maybe wolves hunt in packs, but if you see an undead wolf, your knowledge of the gameworld would come into play and know that undead roam alone.

and maybe based on what type of player town currently exists in an area, that determines the types of npcs that exist there.

the point i'm making here isn't my design of a game, but the POTENTIAL for the total amount of awesomeness that a massively multiplayer experience could provide. it took me 10 minutes to think of those ideas. what could a designer with YEARS of time accomplish?

blizzard, instead of pouring millions into a world that never changes and staticness everywhere, could put that money to use and design systems such as these.

but they won't because the cashcow is flowing and the status quo has worked for 10 years, and it'll work for 10 more. piece of shit industry.

[Arbitrary]

Originally Posted by Lyenae

Nice post, it embodies why just about everyone on this fucking thread is a mindless half-twit who's content to let MMO's stale out with predictability.

It's cool to like that "planning" shit where somehow encounters should be orchestral symphonies rehearsed/redone ad hoc (so anti-RPG btw) and not fucking ENCOUNTERS where you need to make on the spot decisions and adjustments to react to unexpected complications.

That's your business and guess what, any schleps fresh out of Gibbs can bake that shit into an MMO so you'll be happy. You'll have shit to play your whole life. Grats.

There's another crowd of people who wants more, and another larger amount who aren't even aware that it could happen. I've seen predictable boss fights for 10 fucking years. They added scripts, few shitty curveballs, That's fucking it? That's the best you can do in the tech world with 10 fucking years (possibly 15 if I MUD'd before eq?)

I don't even know what's more ridiculous, the fact that innovation hasn't happened, or you monkeys parading on these boards like innovation requires 50 IBM bluegenes and 3000 asian programmers in a sweat shop to code for.

What he said.

I think the right direction to go would be to make characters far more resilient and combats generally longer so your collective decisions over the encounter and ability to adapt as a team were more important than correctly utilizing the proper rotation while following the script.

[Malice]

Originally Posted by Dumar

but they won't because the cashcow is flowing and the status quo has worked for 10 years, and it'll work for 10 more. piece of shit industry.

Everything in the world has the potential for X-TREME AWESOME, if only people would listen to Soandso's great idea!

[Malice]

Originally Posted by Arbitrary

What he said.

I think the right direction to go would be to make characters far more resilient and combats generally longer so your collective decisions over the encounter and ability to adapt as a team were more important than correctly utilizing the proper rotation while following the script.

So, another Vex Thal? That'll go over well Basically to impliment all the changes everyone seems to think MMOs need, it'd require a completely new game from the ground up. The next-gen MMO is going to be interesting to explore.

But in keeping with the thread's topic, there's really no way for Blizzard to bring these ideas live (even IF they did, 2 years down the line), half their playerbase would bitch to high heaven that loot is harder to get.

[Dumar]

Originally Posted by Arbitrary

What he said.

I think the right direction to go would be to make characters far more resilient and combats generally longer so your collective decisions over the encounter and ability to adapt as a team were more important than correctly utilizing the proper rotation while following the script.

i very much agree with this. i was actually gonna type that players in general should be made much harder to die. the game then doesn't revolve around whack a mole healer, but the collective decisions of the players.

[Dumar]

Originally Posted by Lyenae

It's cool to like that "planning" shit where somehow encounters should be orchestral symphonies rehearsed/redone ad hoc (so anti-RPG btw) [...]

i actually considered it as directions to building furniture. your analogy is much more kind.