WoW Going EQ in terms of loot

[Kheldin]

Originally Posted by yknits

Not quite. I'm talking about toning down the Loot system. That doesn't make the mechanics of encounters different. Even completely naked, they could retune content to those statistics. I refer to the non-mmo's as a reference for inspiration but by no means does it need to be an FPS. Loot simply dictates too much about the game mechanics. It would be much easier to tune around a less variable constant than the current gear checks we have today. I would not be opposed to an FPS MMO either, if they did it right.

I just get sick of people touting skill because they spent 30 hours a week to get loot. Complaining when loot isn't good enough and then when it is too good.

The problem with your model in a game like WoW is that the people who suck ass (read as 90% of the populace playing the game) would still be foaming at the mouth trying to get past Molten Core, while the people who can do the content then get their minor upgrades and the like and can move on to other content because they are stronger players.

Blizzard needs to throw out huge gear resets to give content for the 6-sigma worth of people to keep paying for the game. Otherwise they'd still be huffing paint back in old world content.

it's too late for WoW to reinvent the wheel.

[yknits]

Originally Posted by Kheldin

The problem with your model in a game like WoW is that the people who suck ass (read as 90% of the populace playing the game) would still be foaming at the mouth trying to get past Molten Core, while the people who can do the content then get their minor upgrades and the like and can move on to other content because they are stronger players.

Blizzard needs to throw out huge gear resets to give content for the 6-sigma worth of people to keep paying for the game. Otherwise they'd still be huffing paint back in old world content.

it's too late for WoW to reinvent the wheel.

To an extent I agree. But that is the elitist in me. We both know damn well that the majority of wow does not speak for the majority of games. Another way to combat that is simply removing caps. Zerg guilds were never recognized anyway by those of us who cared. Those who foam at the mouth would just throw more numbers at the encounter. Sooner or later they would be appeased. Those of us who sat by wondering why it took so many, well we would be no different than we are now. Looking down our noses.

[Dumar]

Originally Posted by yknits

good points

wow won't be fixed. they're not gonna change anything and ride the moneymobile to the next major mmog. we may see a different model then, but i'm skeptical even about that.

in a nutshell: if the solution to a problem contains other problems or severely limits or restricts, then it is NOT a solution. this is the design with warcraft.
they don't just throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater, they throw the entire house out with the bathwater. they throw the entire neighborhood out with the bathwater.
in their efforts to fix eq's problems, they didn't solve them, they just took whatever the problem was, and hacked that aspect to pieces until it fit the design.

they have or had no regard whatsoever for what makes mmo's unique or special. did they not consider the ramifications of instancing every dungeon? or did they consider the ramifications of their utter lack of clickies? they designed themselves into such a small box that it's too late to fix. things like this, where they chose to literally throw the neighborhood out with the bathwater, makes me skeptical of not only their future games, but of the industry altogether.

for all churping the company line about how wow fixes certain issues, please think about it. what kind of solutions are they? and what problems do they solve? do they SOLVE the problems or just hack it to utter pieces until it's not a problem in the first place.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by yknits

So procs

Not the most retarded thing I've ever read, but up there. You basically bitched about how using different guns gives you different playstyles and how that should be mirrored in MMO's, without even stopping to think, "Oh yeah, hey...classes. Shit, nevermind."

You bitch about how loot is made more important then skill like that's inherantly a bad thing. If you knew anything about how computers work, you'd realize that the only 'skill' that MMO's currently do not try to incorporate (at least to any major degree) is aiming. However, since achieving such a game would require computer hardware made out of good intention and unicorn farts.

Look, it's cute that you think that something should remain precious and loved forever, it really is. But for everybody with actual testicles, one made out flesh and awesome, wearing the same piece of gear for 3 years because there's nothing better for that slot is silly.

And don't give me some hippy-dumaresque crap about a LOOT SYSTEM DONE RIGHT MEANS EVERY ITEM WOULD BE BEST IN EVERY SLOT LOL!

Best in slot items coming from 3 year old content doesn't mean people will be going back and re-doing that content. They'll do it the first time around, get the item, and then just ignore any future content with less then ideal shit.

And before you go, "BUT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MAN...THINK LIKe, WOAH...THIS WILL BLOW YOUR MIND....DIFFERENT GEAR FOR DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES!"

Guess what asshole, that's already done. Resist sets (and for the record, the 'best in slot' resist items back in vanilla WoW came from level 30's content and NOBODY LIKED THAT SHIT) and alternate spec sets exist as well.

I'd go on, but I have a feeling you'll just angrily retort, call me a cocklick, post some drivel about how EQ was great because of items like CoS and then fade into obscurity like everybody else who argues with me and is dead fucking wrong.

[Antoine]

Steenkie, how does this t5 priest we took to our first Kalec kill figure into your argument?

[Kheldin]

My only beef with how WoW handled things related to the pigeonholing of classes with Naxx gear, and then the knee-jerk stamina adjustment in TBC. Going through vanilla-WoW was an enjoyable experience, but it felt like my character progressed more in vanilla-wow than in the first several expansions in EQ at least through Velious. The upgrades from T1 to T2 were good, and AQ40/Naxx gear was great. They were meaningful benefits even at the marginal level. Then we had this insane amount of mudflation with the stamina change, which then forced other gear to match it. If you give everyone an extra 7-10k (or more) hitpoints, then for a pvp game you need to give them the ability to knock down those HPs.

Going through my first time getting 61-70, took me 5 days /played (i took my time in some areas to be sure), and yet in short period of time there was more relative growth in my character than all my time at 70. To me that fucked it up. The baseline gear had to increase so drastically that it started to become comical. I could get greens that were better than my epic 2hrs.

But as already stated, it's too late to put the cat in the bag. Blizzard is unwilling to do the nerfs neccesary to even things out and let there be a steady progression curve. They were fine in vanilla, but they lost their vision(tm) in TBC, and I'd be hard pressed for someone to suggest otherwise. The power gains from T1 to Naxx were sufficient and meaningful. They were not absurd, as they most definitely reflected the amount of effort and time put in. The power gains from 61-70 were absurd. It's as if they wanted an epic'd out 60 to be the baseline power of every Joe Casual on the server, and then they decided to be reluctant to let raid gear be useful again. The powergains from T4-T5 is for many classes a joke, and then some classes can say the same for T5-T6. The only reason a holy paladin even got T6 was because they nerfed T5, not because T6 was the better set, and that's ass backwards.

Hopefully Blizzard gets it right in their next game, but we've gone too far down the rabbit hole to even begin to pull ourselves out. Don't even get me started on how absurdedly broken resilience is as a stat, and how it fubared PVP.

[Kheldin]

Originally Posted by Antoine

Steenkie, how does this t5 priest we took to our first Kalec kill figure into your argument?

Healer gear doesn't scale with tiers nearly as well as DPS gear does. As a holy paladin all I had to do was insure that I had enough MP5 to constantly heal, while keeping around 1800'ish healing. T6 just makes it that much easier to do, T5 is still very potent as a healer, especially with the spirit changes.

[Diatribe]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

*snip*

I understand what you're saying, but like most of us here who came from previous MMO's in which the world & gear obtained from it, was a far, far, far better thing than what we have now in games such as WoW & EQ2 (let alone future games such as AoC & WAR).

I'll admit, that many aspects of gameplay in games such as WoW are FAR better than a game such as EQ1. Hell, I played a cleric for 5 years. Oh boy. Fun shit there. 5 years of staring at the floor or a wall. Counting to 1.5, 2, or 2.5 and pressing my CH button. Oh, wait. I'd mass buff the raid every now and then. Click on my clicky to rez someone every now and then, or "Find a safe place to die....". So yeah, games such as WoW in their iteration are better than previous games. But the concept from Old WoW to "New and Improved" WoW from when they switched to TBC progression is just fucking insane.

You say "Blah Blah Blah, Green Loot this. Blah Blah Blah, Blue Loot that." Yes, I understand what you're saying there. I shouldn't compare a BRD blue to an Outland green. Duh. But if I'm looking at a blue I got from doing a 60th lvl quest pre-bc to a 60th lvl green random mob drop and I'm looking at it with say the "RatingBuster" mod and the green > blue, then something is wrong. And no, this isn't part of the whole +STA normalization bullshit they did with TBC either.

Gear needs to run a more even natural progression of upgrades than the sudden volcano-like explosion of upgrades the moment you zoned into Outlands from Blasted Lands. On top of this, I'm not saying that old content gear should ever compete long term with new content gear: At some point all gear should (and will) be upgraded.

[Antoine]

A lot of it was also due to how terribly itemized pre-bc items were. They had all the right iLevels, but all the wrong distributions of stats.

[Diatribe]

Originally Posted by Antoine

A lot of it was also due to how terribly itemized pre-bc items were. They had all the right iLevels, but all the wrong distributions of stats.

So.....to make the problem go away, they introduce a new problem with even bigger potential pitfalls than before?

It's like telling someone "You're an alcoholic. You need to stop. Here, smoke crack cocaine instead." Yeah, sure, you got them to stop drinking booze all the time.......

[EmiliaEQ]

I dont think Blizzard will do another "Stamina Revamp" so we can ignore that.

"Specs" will lead to horrible itemisation problems which are now too late to fix.
But this is solvable for World of Starcraft or another MMO. Paladins stack SpellPower
If they are "Heal Spec" => SpellPower x 2 = effective +Heal
If they are "Melee Spec" => SpellPower x3 = effective +Atk
If they are "Tank Spec" => SpellPower x2 = effective +Ac

Making "HP Gear" "Avoidance Gear" "BlockGear" while nice idea actually sucks
because it drastically increases the impact of the RNG on your efficiency.
This is where EQ's tanking gear starting with Luclin rocked, it was always "perfect".
You were never gimped because "CloackA CloackB" never dropped and you got "CloackC".

While "Tokens" decrease the impact of the RNG, i dont like tokens.
It feels like shopping at walmart, semi random molds (as WoW does) is
probably the best solution between RNG & Reliability.

Having "beefed up greens/blues" helps newcomers catch up.
Do you have any idea how hard it was to replace a someone like a
400AA full Elemental warrior when GoD started ? Horribly Horribly Hard

WoW's system of making old content useless sucks, but WoW is NOT a raid MMO.
Its a casual cash cow never forget that. EQ was 99% raid centric & progression.

However you can probably design & itemise around a stat that will have zero
impact outside raids to make raid loot difference.
They have already started doing that with Resilience & Expertise but its retarded
because these have impact in PvP & PvE they are not "specific" or even "raid related"
Green / Blues / Purples = Stats
PvP Purples => Stats + PvP Focus
PvE Purples => Stats + PvE Focus
"Banes" come to mind for DPS classes in PvP ...
Dragon Bane = zero impact in the game exept for Onyxia & BWL

[LadyVex]

It's funny people say "This is the elitist in me talking" but if you were the elitist you'd know how fucking awful EQ shit was.

If you are made out of any parts hardcore, then gear revamps and new items simply mean more time spent wrecking shit than not.

It was really fun doing an entire guild wipe and then spending eons in VT gearing up while the other hardcore guilds on our server wrecked shit in PoP. I mean, eventually we passed them just due to gear acquisition but fuck man.

And please, BWL trinkets had insane longevity; some of the best players in game used that shit forever. Wasn't Sean here previously commenting on how 6/8 Cryptstalker and Drake Fang Talisman lasted him till his Dragonspine Trophy?

Do you see anyone doing BWL for those trinkets?

Gear explodes because it's necessary. Not being able to reset gear made it extremely hard to get into games like EQ; what's that? You haven't been around forever? You DON'T have planar gear? What the fuck? Why haven't you char deleted yet?

WoW wants people to play as often as possible, with as many people as possible. Hence gear that trumps a different color. Don't even THINK of colors. That's your issue there. No matter how many times an intelligent person posts about how honestly, WoW needs to completely throw out the color system, we have people comparing different ilvls of gear just due to colors.

Everyone should be required to roll a mage and level it to understand colors have no concept on how good an item is.

Making gear that is easy to get keeps people coming back, rerolling alts, or inviting friends because they can easily integrate them into their raiding.

Ugh, less EQ talk. The thought of VT farming makes me cringe.

[Northerner]

I think it is all a tempest in a teakettle anyhow.

Gear (in PvE and to a lesser but still important degree in PvP) presently separates the very good from the fairly good. The competent are separated from the shit much earlier. I shit you not that day in and day out I see Player A outperform Player B in an identical role through skill and not gear. It happens.

Look, I'm a min-maxer and always have been. I'm old and have less twitch than I once had but I make up for it with encounter knowledge and mechanics background. My gear (as a rare semi-casual component of our raidforce) is not up to the rest. I'm still have all my T6 but not the offset stuff that really makes it shine. I can still kick the shit out of a poorer player in "better"* gear and that is the way it ought to be. An equally good player with better gear in turn will outperform me in a dps role and that too is right.

* for many classes gear selection is indeed a huge determinant of viability. Again though, only at the top end. For players that are still hitting buttons only because they make for big numbers, the difference is not gear, it's knowledge and execution.

[Diatribe]

Originally Posted by LadyVex

It's funny people say "This is the elitist in me talking" but if you were the elitist you'd know how fucking awful EQ shit was.

If you are made out of any parts hardcore, then gear revamps and new items simply mean more time spent wrecking shit than not.

It was really fun doing an entire guild wipe and then spending eons in VT gearing up while the other hardcore guilds on our server wrecked shit in PoP. I mean, eventually we passed them just due to gear acquisition but fuck man.

And please, BWL trinkets had insane longevity; some of the best players in game used that shit forever. Wasn't Sean here previously commenting on how 6/8 Cryptstalker and Drake Fang Talisman lasted him till his Dragonspine Trophy?

Do you see anyone doing BWL for those trinkets?

Gear explodes because it's necessary. Not being able to reset gear made it extremely hard to get into games like EQ; what's that? You haven't been around forever? You DON'T have planar gear? What the fuck? Why haven't you char deleted yet?

WoW wants people to play as often as possible, with as many people as possible. Hence gear that trumps a different color. Don't even THINK of colors. That's your issue there. No matter how many times an intelligent person posts about how honestly, WoW needs to completely throw out the color system, we have people comparing different ilvls of gear just due to colors.

Everyone should be required to roll a mage and level it to understand colors have no concept on how good an item is.

Making gear that is easy to get keeps people coming back, rerolling alts, or inviting friends because they can easily integrate them into their raiding.

Ugh, less EQ talk. The thought of VT farming makes me cringe.

Farming VT wasn't bad. Honestly, it wasn't.

It was camping all the various parts of that goddamned motherfucking key for days and days and days and GODDAMITTHISFUCKINGSUCKS days on end, is what sucked.

[LadyVex]

Arch Overseers stayed in VT forever, even after PoP was released.

VT farming was awful. AWFUL.

And you can't tell me it wasn't that bad; it's an opinion, so "honestly" has nothing to do with it.

HONESTLY the key wasn't bad; if you were hardcore you did it in groups, and didn't do shit till everyone had it.

Aten Ha Ra fights that involved picking up mod rods from the ground and pressing minimum buttons made me really enjoy short stories, like the Books of Blood.

But see, this is the game whose models you are vouching for. Lay off the sugar, man!