[VG] The Current State of Vanguard - Page 153

Bongk · 09-22-2008, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laerazi

Shouldn't the experience of getting to maximum level be the development/gear up/growing process?

nope, thats not how wow did it and everything has to emulate wow.

Gwen Rockpounder · 09-23-2008, 03:09 AM

I've not quite finished the island yet, I'm at the temple which I presume is the final area.

Someone earlier asked for island thoughts from old players. I've tried a couple of times to play VG before, i was even one of the loons who bought it at launch. The VG you see now is night and day from the old one. The graphics finally run decently on my machine and damn some of the views are nice. I get the odd hitch here and there and so far I think I've only chunked a couple of times on the island which seemed to pause for only 2-3 seconds instead of the horrible old 20-30 second ones. Combat animations for a 2handed weapon using human are very nice and flow very well from one movement to another. I've not tried any of the freakier races and only saw humans, dwarves, gnomes and one dog so far from the 100+ (yes, it has been that busy at the weekend!) different players I've seen kicking about. Population wise it's been the busiest I've seen VG since I played at launch which was helpful as some of the quest areas are tuned with very quick respawns and multi-mob aggro's which could overwhelm someone new to the game very quickly. However with the death penalty not kicking in until presumably you have left the island it's mostly a case of just rebuff and head back to where you were, dying in the temple at the end is a bit more of a pita as you have to re-hire the flying mount to get there.

Yes, flying mounts feature very early in the levelling process and it's a decent carrot. You get to hire one for 10 minutes for 25 copper. Once you've flown around the landscape for a bit and seen some of the gorgeous views the engine is capable of it's an incentive to get off your arse and try and get one yourself at some point. Not knowing bugger all about VG atm, I hope it's not level 50 before you'll see one again.

One thing I've always liked about VG is the random nameds they pop into almost very area that has some monsters. Bash away for a few minutes in a camp and more often than not something with a different name will spawn that has at one item in its drop table that is decent for the level and area. Doing that around the island has netted me half an outfit of decent gear to go with the loot that the new quests provide.

They've gone the EQ2 TimDeep way of gearing up players with loot from initial quests, it seems to be much better than it used to be in the earlier levels and doesnt make you feel like you are still wielding a pointy stick and dustbin lid at level 10. There is no access to mail or /claim items whilst on the island and no way to get back once you leave.

One thing that always annoys is bag space. Someone in a focus group must have noticed that new players always have issues with it so they have bags dropping from mobs very reguarly and bags from quests as well, however the amount of stuff that drops means these still get filled up very quickly. Unless I'm blind and missed it, there's no banker in the early stages so you have to carry all your crap around and if you start harvesting etc as well bag space is a constant juggle.

Anyways, this is turning into a ramble so will wind down here. If you got the mail and haven't tried VG for a while, give it a look! Whether it will be enough to sub you after a month, i don't know. I'm enjoying it at the moment which is good enough!

Tenks · 09-23-2008, 07:29 AM

I know it was financially impossible but if VG released now instead of when it did I think it could have been a decently successful MMO with 500k subs. The problem is that the game is horrible when playing by yourself. The social aspect and class interaction, however, is simply amazing. By far the best of any MMO on the market. The issue I had, when I finally stopped playing with TMB, was that 90% of the time I was solo simply because there weren't enough groups out there.

Its a shame. I doubt any investors will back a niche MMO of VG's size and scope anymore after the horrible failure of Vanguard.

Twobit Whore · 09-23-2008, 07:49 AM

If it released now it would be going up against the tail-end of AoC (which might help it really since people are running from it like it's Brian Peppers), WAR and the impending WoW expansion. So no, I don't think it would have 500k subs. As much as the quality of a game matters, quality and timing of the competition is very important.

It's just not enough to have a 'decent' game these days, you have to have a game that stands out amongst its peers and nothing Vanguard does stands out. It's incredibly generic.

Tenks · 09-23-2008, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

If it released now it would be going up against the tail-end of AoC (which might help it really since people are running from it like it's Brian Peppers), WAR and the impending WoW expansion. So no, I don't think it would have 500k subs. As much as the quality of a game matters, quality and timing of the competition is very important.

It's just not enough to have a 'decent' game these days, you have to have a game that stands out amongst its peers and nothing Vanguard does stands out. It's incredibly generic.

Disagree. The healer archetypes in VG are stunningly unique. For the laundry list of issues I have with VG class variety and uniqueness is not one of them.

Twobit Whore · 09-23-2008, 08:24 AM

Many games have 'unique' classes. While a couple of VG classes aren't bad that isn't something unique to VG itself.

AoC has 'unique' healers in that you can do damage (and too much of it). WoW has classes like the Druid. WAR has stuff as well.

Like I said, you have to stand out.. and if you say 'hey our healers are fun' that isn't going to cut it because other games can say the same.

Vinen · 09-23-2008, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

Many games have 'unique' classes. While a couple of VG classes aren't bad that isn't something unique to VG itself.

AoC has 'unique' healers in that you can do damage (and too much of it). WoW has classes like the Druid. WAR has stuff as well.

Like I said, you have to stand out.. and if you say 'hey our healers are fun' that isn't going to cut it because other games can say the same.

It's not just doing Damage. It's how they integrated healing and damage. The crossing of a Mage, Priest and WoW Rogue Mechanics to form the Blood Mage was incredible. No other class has neared Blood Mage in any other game in terms of enjoyment to play for me at least-

Tortfeasor · 09-23-2008, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woqqqa

Okay, here's an interesting question for you Vanguard players: if not for the insanely crappy graphics optimization, engine, etc (which is one of the main barriers to entry when playing), do you think the underlying gameplay would be good enough for the game to fill a sizable MMORPG niche, or is it still trying to shake off the lack of polish that ruined the game's release? Details please.

I don't think so. VG pretty much only shines in the class mechanic department, and to a lesser extent, art style (which is subjective). It is still just another medieval fantasy game focused on PvE. Combat mechanics and gameplay are nothing new.

The one thing that was Hyped over and over was that it would be a more difficult version of EQ, EQ2, or WOW that would be more immersive. Sadly it failed to provide

1. stability and polish (without a doubt this is what killed VG before it even had a chance)
2. content that was challenging
3. anything that made it stand out (other than some asshole saying OMG 3RD GEN MMO, 1337)

So if you removed number 1, you may have had the resources to produce more content, but still: I don't see much else they could do or could have done to make it a solid competitor.

jayrebb · 09-24-2008, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinen

It's not just doing Damage. It's how they integrated healing and damage. The crossing of a Mage, Priest and WoW Rogue Mechanics to form the Blood Mage was incredible. No other class has neared Blood Mage in any other game in terms of enjoyment to play for me at least-

Agree. Hope someone rips those class mechanics off in a future game.

Draegan · 09-24-2008, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinen

It's not just doing Damage. It's how they integrated healing and damage. The crossing of a Mage, Priest and WoW Rogue Mechanics to form the Blood Mage was incredible. No other class has neared Blood Mage in any other game in terms of enjoyment to play for me at least-

That's not the point though. Even though some of VG's classes are cool and their mechanics are different, the rest of the game doesn't stand out.

Random thought, I wish I still had EQ2 and VG installed with free access for one day. I just got a whole new system and I'm curious to see how it would run those games.

Vinen · 09-24-2008, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draegan

That's not the point though. Even though some of VG's classes are cool and their mechanics are different, the rest of the game doesn't stand out.

Random thought, I wish I still had EQ2 and VG installed with free access for one day. I just got a whole new system and I'm curious to see how it would run those games.

Wat? I wasn't talking about the rest of the game. Was just making a comment in response to someone elses class comment...

In truth, Vanguard had a lot of mechanics and areas which stood out. The problem was... the majority of areas did not stand out.

Grave · 09-24-2008, 09:03 AM

I still say that problem (performance issues and horrible character models aside) was the world itself. So completely lifeless and uninteresting. I mean, sure, you had areas every now and then that you could look at and go "Oh, that looks cool." But, most areas were fairly bland and not particularly engaging. No one area really had a life of its own (think the original Nektulos Forest, Misty Thicket, Oasis) that stuck out and made you remember them.

Starting zones in particular were awful, especially Dark Elf which is what I played the most. Considering how important it is to hook people in those early levels, I think VG really screwed themselves there. The Wood Elf starting area was visually cool, but it had that stupid asian influence with the Jin and Okami, etc. Totally killed immersion for me when I can't figure out if I'm playing high fantasy or some anime MMO. For some reason that really bothered me.

I just hope all the suits don't assume that because VG failed, any game like it will also fail. It's simply not true, there IS a market for a game like that, it just needs to be amazing. Not to sound arrogant here, but I really think if I were put in a position to make the design decisions that I really could create the MMO that would bring back that EQ feeling and really re-captivate the players who enjoy that style of gameplay. It simply requires a blend of old and new in the right places, with a few unique tweaks and twists. Who knows though, maybe someone will try again someday.

09-23-2008, 03:09 AM	#2282 (permalink)
Gwen Rockpounder Old but not grumpy! Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ing-Ger-Land! Posts: 1,097	I've not quite finished the island yet, I'm at the temple which I presume is the final area. Someone earlier asked for island thoughts from old players. I've tried a couple of times to play VG before, i was even one of the loons who bought it at launch. The VG you see now is night and day from the old one. The graphics finally run decently on my machine and damn some of the views are nice. I get the odd hitch here and there and so far I think I've only chunked a couple of times on the island which seemed to pause for only 2-3 seconds instead of the horrible old 20-30 second ones. Combat animations for a 2handed weapon using human are very nice and flow very well from one movement to another. I've not tried any of the freakier races and only saw humans, dwarves, gnomes and one dog so far from the 100+ (yes, it has been that busy at the weekend!) different players I've seen kicking about. Population wise it's been the busiest I've seen VG since I played at launch which was helpful as some of the quest areas are tuned with very quick respawns and multi-mob aggro's which could overwhelm someone new to the game very quickly. However with the death penalty not kicking in until presumably you have left the island it's mostly a case of just rebuff and head back to where you were, dying in the temple at the end is a bit more of a pita as you have to re-hire the flying mount to get there. Yes, flying mounts feature very early in the levelling process and it's a decent carrot. You get to hire one for 10 minutes for 25 copper. Once you've flown around the landscape for a bit and seen some of the gorgeous views the engine is capable of it's an incentive to get off your arse and try and get one yourself at some point. Not knowing bugger all about VG atm, I hope it's not level 50 before you'll see one again. One thing I've always liked about VG is the random nameds they pop into almost very area that has some monsters. Bash away for a few minutes in a camp and more often than not something with a different name will spawn that has at one item in its drop table that is decent for the level and area. Doing that around the island has netted me half an outfit of decent gear to go with the loot that the new quests provide. They've gone the EQ2 TimDeep way of gearing up players with loot from initial quests, it seems to be much better than it used to be in the earlier levels and doesnt make you feel like you are still wielding a pointy stick and dustbin lid at level 10. There is no access to mail or /claim items whilst on the island and no way to get back once you leave. One thing that always annoys is bag space. Someone in a focus group must have noticed that new players always have issues with it so they have bags dropping from mobs very reguarly and bags from quests as well, however the amount of stuff that drops means these still get filled up very quickly. Unless I'm blind and missed it, there's no banker in the early stages so you have to carry all your crap around and if you start harvesting etc as well bag space is a constant juggle. Anyways, this is turning into a ramble so will wind down here. If you got the mail and haven't tried VG for a while, give it a look! Whether it will be enough to sub you after a month, i don't know. I'm enjoying it at the moment which is good enough! __________________ 8 clicking Fred Bloggs in ERepublic and rediscovering pc/console gaming. Stuart Pearce for PM, he'd sort the politicians out!

09-23-2008, 07:49 AM	#2284 (permalink)
Twobit Whore Insert Quarter Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 11,155 -14 Internets	If it released now it would be going up against the tail-end of AoC (which might help it really since people are running from it like it's Brian Peppers), WAR and the impending WoW expansion. So no, I don't think it would have 500k subs. As much as the quality of a game matters, quality and timing of the competition is very important. It's just not enough to have a 'decent' game these days, you have to have a game that stands out amongst its peers and nothing Vanguard does stands out. It's incredibly generic. __________________ I got a list of demands written on the palm of my hand. I ball my fists and you gonna know where I stand.

09-23-2008, 08:24 AM	#2286 (permalink)
Twobit Whore Insert Quarter Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 11,155 -14 Internets	Many games have 'unique' classes. While a couple of VG classes aren't bad that isn't something unique to VG itself. AoC has 'unique' healers in that you can do damage (and too much of it). WoW has classes like the Druid. WAR has stuff as well. Like I said, you have to stand out.. and if you say 'hey our healers are fun' that isn't going to cut it because other games can say the same. __________________ I got a list of demands written on the palm of my hand. I ball my fists and you gonna know where I stand.

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09-23-2008, 07:29 AM	#2283 (permalink)
Tenks Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,622	I know it was financially impossible but if VG released now instead of when it did I think it could have been a decently successful MMO with 500k subs. The problem is that the game is horrible when playing by yourself. The social aspect and class interaction, however, is simply amazing. By far the best of any MMO on the market. The issue I had, when I finally stopped playing with TMB, was that 90% of the time I was solo simply because there weren't enough groups out there. Its a shame. I doubt any investors will back a niche MMO of VG's size and scope anymore after the horrible failure of Vanguard.

09-24-2008, 09:03 AM	#2292 (permalink)
Grave Slightly OP Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 2,136 +38 Internets	I still say that problem (performance issues and horrible character models aside) was the world itself. So completely lifeless and uninteresting. I mean, sure, you had areas every now and then that you could look at and go "Oh, that looks cool." But, most areas were fairly bland and not particularly engaging. No one area really had a life of its own (think the original Nektulos Forest, Misty Thicket, Oasis) that stuck out and made you remember them. Starting zones in particular were awful, especially Dark Elf which is what I played the most. Considering how important it is to hook people in those early levels, I think VG really screwed themselves there. The Wood Elf starting area was visually cool, but it had that stupid asian influence with the Jin and Okami, etc. Totally killed immersion for me when I can't figure out if I'm playing high fantasy or some anime MMO. For some reason that really bothered me. I just hope all the suits don't assume that because VG failed, any game like it will also fail. It's simply not true, there IS a market for a game like that, it just needs to be amazing. Not to sound arrogant here, but I really think if I were put in a position to make the design decisions that I really could create the MMO that would bring back that EQ feeling and really re-captivate the players who enjoy that style of gameplay. It simply requires a blend of old and new in the right places, with a few unique tweaks and twists. Who knows though, maybe someone will try again someday.