[VG] The Current State of Vanguard

[Froofy-D]

Originally Posted by Etwynn

Closing down Sartok: Terrible idea. PvP on PvE servers: good idea. Sartok players want to be able to kill people while doing PvE content, that's kind of it's appeal. WoW /pvp tag systems just don't allow that. If you shut down the Sartok server Vanguard would get a lot of forumhate. With that said, some sort of PvP on PvE servers would be nice for existing and new PvE server players. One of the biggest drawbacks to Vanguard for WoW players is that the only option for PvP is playing on a server which caps at like 150 players during primetime.

They should make a couple max level zones PVP zones, on all servers. Then have 1 PVP single-group dungeon with the best group loot in the game. Then make a PVP raid zone with the best raid loot in the game. (Something like Darkness Falls in DAOC).

Would be worth it for the forum drama alone. On a side-note, WoW needs a non-instanced full PVP raid zone like Darkness Falls badly.

[Arrr]

supposedly the trial island is going up on test in about a week. stay tuned, I guess.

[Jerrith]

Originally Posted by Etwynn

Yeah it was a cool idea. I think you guys said it was going to be a dps class, not a tank which makes sense:
...

I think it would have worked as a DPS class. Keeping your hp around 25-50% would be attained not through getting attacked but through through masochistic self-damage abilites (presumably ones that increase in self damage as you get closer to 0%--to make things interesting). It would be cool if the self-damage abilities also functioned as deaggros. And sans some sort of lifetap, the class would basically be unable to solo. I think the funnest part of playing this class would be yelling at PuG healers to
To [Group] STOP FUCKING HEALING ME
[Group][Lulhealz] Large Heal incoming on Berzerker
Berzerker has left the group.

Exactly, it was going to be a 5th DPS class. That group chat seems like it would be an issue, but really, less of one than you might think. You'd activate delay healing, which turned heals into reactions you had 30 seconds to accept or throw away. If that healer wanted to keep casting heals, that's fine... They'd lose all their energy, and not actually heal you. Self damage would help you get into those higher DPS states. The highest damage was reached when between 20% and dead. Risky, but doable. I *really* hope some MMO delivers a class like this some day.

[Inkling9]

Originally Posted by Jerrith

Exactly, it was going to be a 5th DPS class. That group chat seems like it would be an issue, but really, less of one than you might think. You'd activate delay healing, which turned heals into reactions you had 30 seconds to accept or throw away. If that healer wanted to keep casting heals, that's fine... They'd lose all their energy, and not actually heal you. Self damage would help you get into those higher DPS states. The highest damage was reached when between 20% and dead. Risky, but doable. I *really* hope some MMO delivers a class like this some day.

This type of mechanic is a major reason that the Sorcerer was subpart in VG's raiding game because of their reliance on chaos volley. It may sound like a cool and interesting balancing act, but raiding entails AE fights, which render a class like this either seriously gimped or entirely worthless. At least with a sorc they were able to range/avoid the AEs on a few fights and do decent dmg with a certain amount of healing.

The berzerker you describe would essentially be the most worthless raiding class in the game, which I suppose goes along with its role in EQ (at least at first). You could fix it by giving them AE immunity/avoidance/mitigation but that is a no win situation. Either you make them too powerful, nullifying virtually every AE raid mob, or too weak, causing them to die too often in raids.

It may sound cool but later on it really becomes a crippling mechanic to work around when designing content.

[Etwynn]

Originally Posted by Jerrith

Exactly, it was going to be a 5th DPS class. That group chat seems like it would be an issue, but really, less of one than you might think. You'd activate delay healing, which turned heals into reactions you had 30 seconds to accept or throw away. If that healer wanted to keep casting heals, that's fine... They'd lose all their energy, and not actually heal you. Self damage would help you get into those higher DPS states. The highest damage was reached when between 20% and dead. Risky, but doable. I *really* hope some MMO delivers a class like this some day.

Yeah, that sounds awesome.

[Jerrith]

Originally Posted by Inkling9

It may sound cool but later on it really becomes a crippling mechanic to work around when designing content.

I don't know. I understand the concern, but I believe it's still workable. A berserker at no damage would be worse than any other melee DPS class, while a berserker in the 20% to dead range would be the best. In the middle, they'd be similar to the other DPS classes.

When raiding, you wouldn't be able to stay in that ideal range, but with the healing reactions available on demand (assuming your party's healer is healing you) I think a berserker could stay alive and do damage on par with the other classes. It's still a balancing act, just around a different point.

Plus, with being able to see what the raid target is casting, you'd know, "Oh I'd better activate an instant big (or small) heal reaction before that AE he's casting hits me."

[Bloodget]

When raiding, you wouldn't be able to stay in that ideal range, but with the healing reactions available on demand (assuming your party's healer is healing you) I think a berserker could stay alive and do damage on par with the other classes. It's still a balancing act, just around a different point.

A class on par with others if they have a healer for them?
I often play healer and i would not accept that guy in my raid group. Get someone" on par" with the berserker that i don't have to babysit.

[kcxiv]

He would have to be immune to all ae damage for a lttiel while then when his buff wears off, he will have to be at full hps, then when his ability pops back up, he can go back down to his zerker rage. They should give him an ability that also knocks his hit points down for damage. Cleric would be seriously stressed out though. lol

[Itlan]

Originally Posted by Inkling9

This type of mechanic is a major reason that the Sorcerer was subpart in VG's raiding game because of their reliance on chaos volley. It may sound like a cool and interesting balancing act, but raiding entails AE fights, which render a class like this either seriously gimped or entirely worthless. At least with a sorc they were able to range/avoid the AEs on a few fights and do decent dmg with a certain amount of healing.

The berzerker you describe would essentially be the most worthless raiding class in the game, which I suppose goes along with its role in EQ (at least at first). You could fix it by giving them AE immunity/avoidance/mitigation but that is a no win situation. Either you make them too powerful, nullifying virtually every AE raid mob, or too weak, causing them to die too often in raids.

It may sound cool but later on it really becomes a crippling mechanic to work around when designing content.

Several ways to deal with this. First of all, resists is the most obvious. There's a reason to having resists in the first place. Second, a quick buff that negates AE damage for x amount time with a y cooldown. Rather obvious, wouldn't you say? The third is actually quite simple too, wards. We've seen them in both Vanguard and EQ2. Wards could act as a way for the Zerker to maintain low health while avoiding an AE assault. Fourth, get the fuck out of the way. Fifth, combat rezz. FIVE WAYS!

This would not be an easy class to play, and would take careful aggro management and tons of skill. If this were the case in EQ1, it would've been a useless class due to HP aggro. However, this isn't the case in the new MMOs, so this class can certainly be created with the features enlisted.

EDIT: And after a quick thought, there is also another way. Nearly all raid bosses have a certain timer on their AEs. This is pretty much fact, so an easy way is to fully heal the zerker prior to the AE onslaught. Most have suggested a reactive type healing effect for the Zerker, so he could simply click the reactives and be at full hp in a hurry. The greatest part is, after the onslaught, no need to heal him.

[Inkling9]

Originally Posted by Itlan

Several ways to deal with this. First of all, resists is the most obvious. There's a reason to having resists in the first place. Second, a quick buff that negates AE damage for x amount time with a y cooldown. Rather obvious, wouldn't you say? The third is actually quite simple too, wards. We've seen them in both Vanguard and EQ2. Wards could act as a way for the Zerker to maintain low health while avoiding an AE assault. Fourth, get the fuck out of the way. Fifth, combat rezz. FIVE WAYS!

This would not be an easy class to play, and would take careful aggro management and tons of skill. If this were the case in EQ1, it would've been a useless class due to HP aggro. However, this isn't the case in the new MMOs, so this class can certainly be created with the features enlisted.

EDIT: And after a quick thought, there is also another way. Nearly all raid bosses have a certain timer on their AEs. This is pretty much fact, so an easy way is to fully heal the zerker prior to the AE onslaught. Most have suggested a reactive type healing effect for the Zerker, so he could simply click the reactives and be at full hp in a hurry. The greatest part is, after the onslaught, no need to heal him.

Resists: You must not have raided VG. Resists in Vanguard are more a matter of mitigation than complete avoidance (like in EQ). The thought is (I believe) that the resist mechanic of EQ essentially trivializes content once you reach a certain gear level. In Vanguard you must deal with the AEs beyond a simple resist spec.

Short duration buff: This is a tough balancing issue. No matter what you set the timer at, there will be some fights where the class is a waste of a spot (a real issue in VG raids), and other fights where it's perhaps the best class available. This in itself isn't a huge problem, as long as you accept that for certain content your class is essentially worthless. And honestly, given the history of VG and current dev team (RIP Avarem), they are more likely to screw it up, either making the class OP or total crap. If they adjust it perfectly the class becomes the best in short fights, worst in long fights, and average the rest of the time. Odds are that future content makes the class less rather than more desirable, since the trend has been toward more and more AE fights that require endurance.

Wards: Same problem of implementation. A self cast ward essentially means you are your own healer, not such a bad thing at first glance, but hard to get right. Give them too powerful of a ward, like one to absorb an entire AE from Zaygius (3-6k depending on debuffs), and they become the new fotm solo class. Raid mobs at the end of APW throw out 3k+ AEs every 20-30s, so if you can get that ward up every time you just became the most overpwered solo class in the game, and also the best melee raid dps. Can we say broken?


The "get the fuck out of the way" and combat rez ideas don't apply to VG raiding at all (combat rezing is very limited in Vanguard). You're a melee class, and AEs in VG tend to go through LoS, and go off with little regularity. (They work on ability timers, and so mobs that do lots of shit end up stuck doing lots of shit all at the same time, chaining cast timers and delaying stuff like crazy. On top of that performance and UI issues make dodging unreasonable most of the time, though there are exceptions.) These problems also make your edited suggestion unreasonable. Kotasoth for example has something like 4-5 AEs. Sometimes more than one lands at the same time, and sometimes they are staggered. Some begin with a % hp trigger, others are timed. Theoretically it would be possible to do a few attacks, then heal and wait, but VG raiding is so imperfect that theoretical plausibility often becomes a waste of time.

It wouldn't be impossible to balance something like the spell buff idea, but it would certainly be difficult. Even if you did properly design the mechanic, you've essentially created a class that will be the least desirable in any long duration AE fights, which seem to be standard mmo design. My point isn't that it's impossible. Rather my point is that a mechanic you must balance against such a standard in content design is extremely problematic.

EDIT: A better solution might be to make the class more vulnerable to a certain kind of attack, likely melee dmg, while performing certain long dps chains. It seems the intention is to stress aggro control as a key component of the class, and a vulnerability would essentially mean they died every time they pulled. There are melee based AEs in Vanguard, but maybe it could be coded to only apply to incoming single target dmg.

As a raid leader, and someone who built a raiding guild, I hated that certain classes were so worthless on AE fights. I'm bias against the whole "kill yourself to do dmg" idea. I can't count the number of times our Psi's killed themselves.

[Hool]

All accounts are active again for a free month, in case you did not already know. I was shocked to see my house still standing

Cheers

[tad10]

Originally Posted by kcxiv

He would have to be immune to all ae damage for a lttiel while then when his buff wears off, he will have to be at full hps, then when his ability pops back up, he can go back down to his zerker rage. They should give him an ability that also knocks his hit points down for damage. Cleric would be seriously stressed out though. lol

All bezerkers would be the race that has the 10sec immunity ;-)

As to the class -- it'd work just fine in groups and I'm sure it could be adjusted for raiding. Who knows if VG can sustain a pop outside of Seradon maybe we'll see it.

Kruegen -- there are PUGS for mainline dungeons as for the rest well, you need to join a large guild that has alts. Unfortunately (?? well I rather liked it but then I had a static group when I leveled my main) the best way to level in VG is with a static group and that's just very difficult to build outside of a guild.

I do know that there are several unguilded FoHboard regulars who are currently leveling new characters on Seradon who I'm sure would be happy to develop a static group.

[GrobbeeTrull2.0]

Originally Posted by Jerrith

Exactly, it was going to be a 5th DPS class. That group chat seems like it would be an issue, but really, less of one than you might think. You'd activate delay healing, which turned heals into reactions you had 30 seconds to accept or throw away. If that healer wanted to keep casting heals, that's fine... They'd lose all their energy, and not actually heal you. Self damage would help you get into those higher DPS states. The highest damage was reached when between 20% and dead. Risky, but doable. I *really* hope some MMO delivers a class like this some day.

EQ2 almost has it. The berserker class there has a few AA paths you can take to turn into a real crit/haste machine when below 30% hp, but healers are lazy whack-a-mole machines and it never happens.

[ismaris]

Originally Posted by Hool

All accounts are active again for a free month, in case you did not already know. I was shocked to see my house still standing

Cheers

Negative. My sub ran out in may and my account is not reactivated.

[Bongk]

Originally Posted by ismaris

Negative. My sub ran out in may and my account is not reactivated.

mine ran out in april, not reactivated.