[WoW]: The Honor Grind Chronicles

[Vorph]

Originally Posted by Chinaman889

Man, back in the days of EQ...

50 days to get decked out like that? Goddamn, you spoiled next-gen mmorpg bastards.

I was as hardcore as anyone in EQ, except for Behemoth who was an order of magnitude beyond anyone else I ever met, and I think it's fine. I don't ever want to play a game again the way I did EQ.


And Zerai has it exactly right--no one ever claimed it was hard, and that warlock screenshot above doesn't impress me the slightest bit. The honor grind is just not even remotely fun to do, something that was true at 2k/hr and even more true now that it's more like 700/hr.

[Chaotic]

Originally Posted by Vorph

I don't ever want to play a game again the way I did EQ.

Oh man, I was just talking with my friend about this last night. He went on a raid with the top guild on my server. We are both pvp'ers so I found it interesting that he would raid.

He said it really wasn't that fun. It really got me thinking - - >

Resiliance is what ruined raiding for me. Only because (bear with me here) in EQ, raiding was fun because it was unique. Instances didn't really exist, so if you had something on farm, if i had the greatblade of chaos, i was the only mother fucker with it, unless some other people in my guild had it. I would go sit in PoT or w/e and people would kiss my ass all day. You're lying if you don't like that. When I was sitting with all my +200 hp +50 all resist crap, my 120/80 weapon when people were /drooling over 40/60 shit - it was good. Walking into zones and having name recognition and all that. Also, I could run around and absolutely annihlate in pvp with my raiding gear, it wasn't even fair (debate that in another thread)

But now, resiliance means your pve gear is basically worthless if you want to pvp. -1

Everyone and their mother has the same exact shit as you due to either badge rewards, or instanced content (500 guilds doing same boss on same night on same server is retarded to me) -1

Item levels let you know exactly what to expect, world of statcraft, and things are almost always sidegrades, or minimal upgrades - and the discrepancy between what you can obtain with casual 5 man content and raiding really doesn't justify the time commitment. -1

I could go on, but you get the point.

So Vorph, you really hit the nail on the head, or so I thought "I never want to play a game like that again" (insofar as time invested i'm assuming) but I think the reality is, that if WoW raiding introduced stuff that was 2-3x what you could get in casual content (which is still NOWHERE near the discrepancy that was in EQ) you would see ALOT more people raiding, and having an interest in raiding. As it stands though, with the afforementioned points, and the introduction of resil, it really just is not worth it at all. I get more respect walking around in my pvp gear then any raider on my server besides maybe the top tanks, because people just really don't care about pve it seems.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Chaotic

. . . but I think the reality is, that if WoW raiding introduced stuff that was 2-3x what you could get in casual content (which is still NOWHERE near the discrepancy that was in EQ) you would see ALOT more people raiding, and having an interest in raiding. As it stands though, with the afforementioned points, and the introduction of resil, it really just is not worth it at all. I get more respect walking around in my pvp gear then any raider on my server besides maybe the top tanks, because people just really don't care about pve it seems.

They didn't do that in EQ either. The masses I mean. I was in top end raiding guilds in EQ as well. We were by far the exception. It was what was even killing EQ since they were basically introducing expansions aimed at the high end raiders and pretty much pissing off the core playerbase.

As was said many times, WOW is a pvp/pve game whereas Eq was strictly pve (with a very few pvp servers). You make pve items too strong and it whacks out pvp, and vice versa.

I honestly do think pvp is the draw to the game more than anything. And if WOW was strictly a pve game, I submit it never would have the subs it does.

[nustabut]

it was boring as fuck. I just ran AV a lot while lying on sofa watching TV with my wireless/kb/laptop.

[Petra~]

Originally Posted by Chaotic

So Vorph, you really hit the nail on the head, or so I thought "I never want to play a game like that again" (insofar as time invested i'm assuming) but I think the reality is, that if WoW raiding introduced stuff that was 2-3x what you could get in casual content (which is still NOWHERE near the discrepancy that was in EQ) you would see ALOT more people raiding, and having an interest in raiding. As it stands though, with the afforementioned points, and the introduction of resil, it really just is not worth it at all. I get more respect walking around in my pvp gear then any raider on my server besides maybe the top tanks, because people just really don't care about pve it seems.

You want to know why no one cares about PVE anymore? Simply put: because it is too fucking easy. Yes, you may wipe on a boss 3-10 times. Who cares? Once you win once, you know EVERYTHING that boss is going to do from that point on. At 75% he is going to AE, everyone move to the other side of the room! At 50% he is going to spell reflect, casters stop nuking! ...every time, no change, ever. Boring. Put a boss in that changes what it does every time you fight it and maybe I will become interested. Make it so raiders have to pay attention to what is going on and react accordingly or wipe instead of stroking their peen to their Armory while they push the 2 required buttons for that fight.

In EQ, I was in the top raiding guild on my server. I played every day for 12+ hours a day. From 1999-2005. Every day. I quit because I couldn't handle it anymore. I hated it. Yes, the races for boss spawns and being the first to down a boss were all very exciting. There was nothing to compare with the infamy (e-peen) that it all brought. There is no way I would ever do that again.

So now, I PVP. Unfortunately though, I now have to PVE also to get the best PVP cloak in the game. Why? Why should I be forced to do content that bores the crap out of me? None of these instances ever change, the change from normal to heroic mode is so minimal. At times I think the only way to spice up PVE content is to grab 4 random scrubs from Orgrimmar and do a heroic with them, at least then I am uncertain if mob A will be sheeped, mob B will be sapped, tank can hold aggro on mobs C and D, ect...

I am decked out in all season 3 gear (except shoulders because we can't break 2k )and I still do battle grounds and love them. At least there things change. There are still times that even with 400+ resilience and 11k+hp unbuffed as a mage that I will get schooled, flat out out played by someone that has no where near the gear I have. That is what excites me, wondering if this next guy running up to me is going to outplay me or if I will outplay him. Give me that in PVE, make me wonder if this mob that I am coming up to is going to outplay me this time.

[Izuldan]

Originally Posted by Chaotic

Only because (bear with me here) in EQ, raiding was fun because it was unique. Instances didn't really exist, so if you had something on farm, if i had the greatblade of chaos, i was the only mother fucker with it, unless some other people in my guild had it. I would go sit in PoT or w/e and people would kiss my ass all day. You're lying if you don't like that.

I always get a kick when people talk about this.

Now you bear with me.....if this is what gets you off, then you must realize it's 100x better IN REAL LIFE. Nothing better than being a self-made millionaire, haters glancing at you when you roll up in your $200,000+ car, getting your Armani Black Label or Ralph Lauren Purple label dress shirt fucked up in some bar, but you don't give a shit because you have 10 more just like it in your closet, having 20-somethings lining up to give you blowjobs even though you're 40 because they know you have your shit together....

Of course, to get there, it means doing well in something OUTSIDE of a video game, unless you are one of the ones inventing the video game.

I'm not criticizing you for wanting attention or to be famous. I am ridiculing you though if you think it makes any fucking difference in a video game.

[Aulirophile]

Been out of WoW forever, what items are actually needed from the honor grind? I'm playing the free trial and am 60 right now, Battlegroup I'm in has won 10/15 AVs I've been in at whatever bracket 60s are in, so sticking with it before I transfer. I did 4k honor in two hours yesterday. This is for Shaman and Priest, btw. What gear do I actually need to save up for? Because when I have exactly that much honor I won't touch a BG till 70. Shadow and Resto, if spec matters. Though I might go Ele once a week for Arena and she might go Disc.

[Vorph]

Shrug, I didn't mean to imply that I don't care about PVE with my "I never want to play a game like that again" comment. In fact, I only care about PVE. I think PVP is a blight on the game, and from the beginning it was always the closest thing in WoW to exactly the sort of thing I want to avoid. The HWL grind was horrific, and even the 'fixed' honor grind is still far beyond what I would call bearable.

All I meant by my comment was that even as someone who was as hardcore as one could get in EQ, I am all for WoW's style of PVE. I would not play a game without instancing, frequent gear upgrades, or small-scale raiding (72, 54, 40 all sucked. 25 is still annoying to me, and I would prefer they were all 10 at this point).

[Aamina]

Originally Posted by Petra~

You want to know why no one cares about PVE anymore? Simply put: because it is too fucking easy. Yes, you may wipe on a boss 3-10 times. Who cares? Once you win once, you know EVERYTHING that boss is going to do from that point on. At 75% he is going to AE, everyone move to the other side of the room! At 50% he is going to spell reflect, casters stop nuking! ...every time, no change, ever. Boring. Put a boss in that changes what it does every time you fight it and maybe I will become interested. Make it so raiders have to pay attention to what is going on and react accordingly or wipe instead of stroking their peen to their Armory while they push the 2 required buttons for that fight.

I completely agree. Make it so raid bosses, at least, have some % chance function with 3-4 choices per "phase." That would keep people on their toes. Of course, you could have some indicator about what choice he had made through some gayass emote or body language of the boss a few seconds earlier so as to not have everyone immediately wipe from an insta-ten-second-spell-reflect, but the idea remains sound. I'm sure this could be done with the current boss-scripting they have in place, and I see no reason not to. It would even make going back to MC kind of fun.

[darksensei]

Originally Posted by Vorph

All I meant by my comment was that even as someone who was as hardcore as one could get in EQ, I am all for WoW's style of PVE. I would not play a game without instancing, frequent gear upgrades, or small-scale raiding (72, 54, 40 all sucked. 25 is still annoying to me, and I would prefer they were all 10 at this point).

It's funny, but I agree completely. I enjoyed the heck out of raiding in EQ, but as the raids became smaller, I started enjoying them more. A Za bear run is just about the perfect raid for me.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Some serious retardation going on here. The rarity/competition for items had nothing to do with how "OMG FUCKING AWESOME" items were in EQ. It was the fact that 99% of itemization was absolute shit. I mean, you can achieve the same goddamn effect by looking at legendaries in WoW. After our rogue got dual glaives he was spammed with tells, still does. Hell, when I go pug it up in shattered halls or something I constantly get "HOLY SHIT!!" tells when I tank 13 mobs at a time. Even people decked out in full S2/S3 gear.

Here's another news flash, even back when raid loot -was- the only way to get epix, people still didn't want to do it. HOLY FUCK WHAT DID YOU SAY? MY GOD! SOME PEOPLE JUST DON'T ENJOY RAIDING AS IT IS CURRENTLY IMPLEMENTED?!?

But Zehn you crazy bastard, if we made it so that the only way to get the best gear was by raiding, wouldn't everybody want to raid?

Well shit son, let me send you to the way back machine, back before the days of free-epix-for-everyone. Back in the early days of WoW, there were only two ways to get purples. One: By working hard and joining a raid guild and earning every goddamn last piece of shiny purple loot or Two: By being female and having sex with the guild leader.

Guess what...there were people who didn't raid then either! I know, I know, you fuckers are probably thinking, "HOLY FUCK...YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME? PEOPLE DIDN'T RAID DESPITE RAID LOOT BEING THE BEST SHIT IN THE GAME?!"

I know, it's hard to believe. Hell, I wouldn't believe if I didn't live through it myself. See, there's this thing...this human 'condition' as I like to call it. Scholars and geneticists alike have spent eons studying it. It's called the "Well..fuck it then" factor. See, if you put human beings at a point where they'd have to put more effort into something then they feel is worth it, this basic instinct kicks in. See, making raiding the pinnacle of loot evolution doesn't result in more raiders, it results in fewer players (See: EverQuest).

I'd explain more, but obviously some of you people have brains with only a limited capacity and I wouldn't want you guys to forget where you live or something by explaining why 'more available' doesn't always have to mean 'easier'

Originally Posted by Maxxius

That's the whole point in a nutshell. It isn't really an issue of it taking x amount of days. It is an issue of just doing repetitive, boring same old crap x amount of days. Many of us told Blizzard how to fix it. Doubt they will listen. Remains to be seen if the new games "learn the lesson."

I still think if they just created about 20 new BG themes, make a 10, 15 and 25 man version of each BG theme, have honor rain from the sky, and then just limit you to spending 10k honor per week (a 30k item would take 3 weeks of dumping honor into to purchase) it would create a very healthy and fun system. Make it take about 3-4 hours of winning, 8 or so hours if you lose alot to hit that 10k goal and you've got a winnar.

There's a ton of other minor tweaks and enhancements that we could brianstorm all day about too, but the simple change above would make pvp so much more entertaining.

The very limited map themes combined with the pressure of grinding as much honor as fast as possible just ruins what could otherwise be an awesome experience.

[Zerai]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

The very limited map themes combined with the pressure of grinding as much honor as fast as possible just ruins what could otherwise be an awesome experience.

Yeah. Grinding is less about grinding..if you spread it out.

Which is why TBC for leveling rocked. You basically did 1-2 levels a zone..then new area. Completely new theme. Same stupid quests, but you felt better about it.

Doing AV for the 5437345743858th time for honour because it's the best honour farm. On the same map. Where the same fucking shit happens. And I take the mine a lot. Dick around. I stop even caring if we win or lose. It's like a haze.

[Chaotic]

Originally Posted by Izuldan

stuff

Ok, let me go do that. People like you are fucking retarded, seriously.

Let me go grab that 2 million waiting for me outside the house and put up that advertisement that gets me those blow jobs, and i'll make sure to get that ferrari on the way. Get over yourself? So people don't play WoW to get good gear, or are idiots for doing that? Please. Also, if you want to compare real lives anytime, please let me know.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

. . .

I still think if they just created about 20 new BG themes, make a 10, 15 and 25 man version of each BG theme, have honor rain from the sky, and then just limit you to spending 10k honor per week (a 30k item would take 3 weeks of dumping honor into to purchase) it would create a very healthy and fun system. Make it take about 3-4 hours of winning, 8 or so hours if you lose alot to hit that 10k goal and you've got a winnar.

There's a ton of other minor tweaks and enhancements that we could brianstorm all day about too, but the simple change above would make pvp so much more entertaining.

The very limited map themes combined with the pressure of grinding as much honor as fast as possible just ruins what could otherwise be an awesome experience.

Randomizing map variants alone would do the trick.

[Saban]

Is it just me or did they lower the rep requirements for all the new blue pvp set pieces to honored?

Apparently yes, which means when 2.4 hits my alts can get less instagib when they step into arena before i get full "free" epicz.