[WoW] 2.4/Sunwell Info - Page 4

Rotanee · 12-20-2007, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dynalisia

Stop thinking that Blizzard won't completely uncouple the competitive arena segment from the rest of the game. Quality games is what made Blizzard's brand big, but eSports is what made it huge. If they will have to make the eSports arenas a completely seperate metagame inside WoW, with diffirently balanced mechanics and abilities for classes, then I don't rule that out for a second.

I would be all for it.

Rezz · 12-20-2007, 05:58 PM

Resilience was the first step, next comes weapons that do "Own" instead of "Damage."

Randomrogue's Backstab Rank X hits YOU for 1337 points of Own!

Kolle · 12-20-2007, 06:02 PM

i've never been into fps type games. anyone care to explain what e-sports would mean for wow?

they just make gear and talent choices mean less?

Talineth · 12-20-2007, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kolle

i've never been into fps type games. anyone care to explain what e-sports would mean for wow?

they just make gear and talent choices mean less?

Yes, in the sense that while the differences should be distinct, they should all be equally viable.

If one side has a big advantage in terms of gear, then it's not going to be fun from an e-sports perspective.

brekk · 12-20-2007, 06:17 PM

I could see them releasing a completely seperate game.

You play online, but at character creation you pick a class/spec and get geared in full Season 3 + specific slot fillers. Similar to the premade characters on PTR.

Then its run like an FPS, join matches. But everyone has the same gear, etc. And then they can balance it all out. If they want to go the E-sports route with it they will have to somehow deal with the bitching that it requires lots of time outside of the e-sports game to be even slightly competitive.

With the limitation of arena points only once per week. Multiple monthes to be in full S3.

Yes I'm aware FPS's take lots of practice outside of the game, but lets be honest if you're good at one FPS other then understanding the nuances of different FPS's you'll be pretty good at any of them.

Edit: And the whole thing with the Sunwell Town slowly progressing as people do daily quests... This is just going to hurt getting people off high population servers. Sure you might deal with queue's but who's gonna transfer to some low pop server that will take much longer to unlock the same stuff.

Surlok TP · 12-20-2007, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kolle

i've never been into fps type games. anyone care to explain what e-sports would mean for wow?

they just make gear and talent choices mean less?

Basically completely structured around skill based team play.

Gear,talents and class weaknesses cannot exist unless in a scenario where the opposing team was allowed to structure their team based on the weaknesses/ strength of the competition.

This obviously doesn't exist in wow currently. The strengths and weaknesses of certain classes on select maps is allowed, IE snipers on certain maps being very powerful in certain FPSes,but not the point of being insurmountable by a solid opposition team.

Randomness like Crits isn't generally tolerated though that's easy enough to circumvent with the resilience system. The current systems of some classes being unbeatable by X class considering equal skill and gear is not tolerable though.

The whole point of CPL style competition is basically the theory of 5 VS 5 using the same weapon on the same mirrored map which would win,the team with more skill.Obviously these situations of identical team composition and weapons don't exist and as such all factors of weapons and map balance must be meticulously obsvered to preserve the skill over randomness style.

Korioni · 12-20-2007, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talineth

Yes, in the sense that while the differences should be distinct, they should all be equally viable.

If one side has a big advantage in terms of gear, then it's not going to be fun from an e-sports perspective.

Gear is already out of the picture. Gladiator sets are already the best pvp gear in the game, so anyone who is focusing on pvp will be wearing them, meaning essentially, that anyone in the top of the arena brackets is completely equal in terms of gear.

Rotanee · 12-20-2007, 06:25 PM

What kind of FPS are out there and big in esports?

I was able to watch a few counterstike matches recently on live stream. It was about as balanced as you can be.

On a map each side defended the same point, each said attacked the same point, an equal number of times--about 10 each. Winning brought some advantages in gear and weapons, but usually for only a game or two.

It was pretty easy to follow as well. Knife is weak, pistol not as weak, machine gun pretty decent, and sniper rifle deadly when used right.

Very fast twitch oriented.

It was very evident it was all about the players, their skill and team work.

Dynalisia · 12-20-2007, 07:21 PM

eSports aren't just about FPS games, even though it seems to be the most widely recognized as the crowning class.

Blizzard's own Starcraft is a huge eSports game in Korea, it even has its own TV channel that does nothing but cover Starcraft all day long. But I believe things like the FIFA games are also played for money in some places.

darksensei · 12-20-2007, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Korioni

Gear is already out of the picture. Gladiator sets are already the best pvp gear in the game, so anyone who is focusing on pvp will be wearing them, meaning essentially, that anyone in the top of the arena brackets is completely equal in terms of gear.

If only that was true, but now is a great example. When season 3 started, you had your stormherald or your cataclysm's edge both being far superior to their equivalent PVP items. Arguably right now the best 2nd trinket for warriors is Berserker's Call. For a sword spec rogue what could beat Illidan's Warglaives. This type of stuff would be a problem for eSports, but the bigger problem is how unbalanced classes are. In tournaments 3v3 is by far the most popular, and imo entertaining to watch. Unfortunately for some classes it's simply not balanced, and how will they implement the changes without completely fucking up their PVE balance when certain classes rely so much on gear instead of skill. Hell, the biggest problem imo is some classes flat out don't require skill. MS, Whirlwind, Hamstring, Piercing Howl, rinse and repeat. Warriors have shit for skill, how will they change that for eSports?

Digo · 12-20-2007, 08:00 PM

Competitive WoW arenas and Starcraft are similar in that there are a few effective builds that have a rock-paper-scissors system. The difference is that in Starcraft, you can change your build in the middle of a match to counter your opponent. In WoW, the gate opens and you're completely fucked if the other team picked a build that counters your team.

This is an even bigger problem in the context of non-professional arenas, because I can't change my class/race/team makeup as easily as I can decide to just start using a zergling rush instead of a terran siege tank push in the next match I play. It's incredibly frustrating to want to play with my friends and know that I just can't do it on any kind of competitive level because I picked the wrong class/race/build and don't have the time necessary to start over.

RiskyChris · 12-20-2007, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digo

This is an even bigger problem in the context of non-professional arenas, because I can't change my class/race/team makeup as easily as I can decide to just start using a zergling rush instead of a terran siege tank push in the next match I play. It's incredibly frustrating to want to play with my friends and know that I just can't do it on any kind of competitive level because I picked the wrong class/race/build and don't have the time necessary to start over.

Or that your friends are shitty class/race/build/gear (gear is fixable). Arenas need a rehaul.

brekk · 12-20-2007, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiskyChris

Or that your friends are shitty class/race/build/gear (gear is fixable). Arenas need a rehaul.

That the issue im faced with now.

Just started playing again with one of my RL friends. I have a 70 spriest, fully geared all the way through gruuls. Outside of SSC/TK+ and/or PVP gear I have no upgrade paths. My friend is a new 70 in full greens, with a few blues. The issue is he's a druid. currently resto. Now druid's especially resto can be good in PVP, but we wanted to do 2v2 arena, and spriest/druid is not exactly a strong combination.

GrobbeeTrull2.0 · 12-20-2007, 08:42 PM

Maybe it's just me... but changing parts of a unique game world so that it can part of an eSport federation seems... well... dirty. I don't know. I'm sure I'm in the minority with my opinion on it, but... well...

RiskyChris · 12-20-2007, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrobbeeTrull2.0

Maybe it's just me... but changing parts of a unique game world so that it can part of an eSport federation seems... well... dirty. I don't know. I'm sure I'm in the minority with my opinion on it, but... well...

Two birds one stone: becoming esporty means arenas will be more balanced. Personally, I don't want WoW to drift so that the playing field is 100% equal, that's boring for an RPG. I would love if Blizz could find a way to not make me pissed that I'm a mage and my best two buddies are not a rogue and priest.

If I could just join arenas and not worry about class makeup, that'd be great.

12-20-2007, 05:58 PM	#47 (permalink)
Rezz Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,308 -1 Internets	Resilience was the first step, next comes weapons that do "Own" instead of "Damage." Randomrogue's Backstab Rank X hits YOU for 1337 points of Own! __________________ Jesus on the dashboard, Whenever it feels right.

12-20-2007, 06:17 PM	#50 (permalink)
brekk Warning: objects may appear more edible than they actually are Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The CT Posts: 6,381 +17 Internets	I could see them releasing a completely seperate game. You play online, but at character creation you pick a class/spec and get geared in full Season 3 + specific slot fillers. Similar to the premade characters on PTR. Then its run like an FPS, join matches. But everyone has the same gear, etc. And then they can balance it all out. If they want to go the E-sports route with it they will have to somehow deal with the bitching that it requires lots of time outside of the e-sports game to be even slightly competitive. With the limitation of arena points only once per week. Multiple monthes to be in full S3. Yes I'm aware FPS's take lots of practice outside of the game, but lets be honest if you're good at one FPS other then understanding the nuances of different FPS's you'll be pretty good at any of them. Edit: And the whole thing with the Sunwell Town slowly progressing as people do daily quests... This is just going to hurt getting people off high population servers. Sure you might deal with queue's but who's gonna transfer to some low pop server that will take much longer to unlock the same stuff. __________________ Brekk SPriest Liesol LOLRet Frstshck Enhance Last edited by brekk; 12-20-2007 at 06:21 PM..

12-20-2007, 08:00 PM	#56 (permalink)
Digo Ad Hoc Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: CA Posts: 1,215 -1 Internets	Competitive WoW arenas and Starcraft are similar in that there are a few effective builds that have a rock-paper-scissors system. The difference is that in Starcraft, you can change your build in the middle of a match to counter your opponent. In WoW, the gate opens and you're completely fucked if the other team picked a build that counters your team. This is an even bigger problem in the context of non-professional arenas, because I can't change my class/race/team makeup as easily as I can decide to just start using a zergling rush instead of a terran siege tank push in the next match I play. It's incredibly frustrating to want to play with my friends and know that I just can't do it on any kind of competitive level because I picked the wrong class/race/build and don't have the time necessary to start over. __________________ casual

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12-20-2007, 06:02 PM	#48 (permalink)
Kolle Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 4,879 -25 Internets	i've never been into fps type games. anyone care to explain what e-sports would mean for wow? they just make gear and talent choices mean less?

12-20-2007, 06:25 PM	#53 (permalink)
Rotanee Banned Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 836 +0 Internets	What kind of FPS are out there and big in esports? I was able to watch a few counterstike matches recently on live stream. It was about as balanced as you can be. On a map each side defended the same point, each said attacked the same point, an equal number of times--about 10 each. Winning brought some advantages in gear and weapons, but usually for only a game or two. It was pretty easy to follow as well. Knife is weak, pistol not as weak, machine gun pretty decent, and sniper rifle deadly when used right. Very fast twitch oriented. It was very evident it was all about the players, their skill and team work.

12-20-2007, 07:21 PM	#54 (permalink)
Dynalisia Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The land of sunshine Posts: 1,673	eSports aren't just about FPS games, even though it seems to be the most widely recognized as the crowning class. Blizzard's own Starcraft is a huge eSports game in Korea, it even has its own TV channel that does nothing but cover Starcraft all day long. But I believe things like the FIFA games are also played for money in some places.

12-20-2007, 08:42 PM	#59 (permalink)
GrobbeeTrull2.0 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 4,172	Maybe it's just me... but changing parts of a unique game world so that it can part of an eSport federation seems... well... dirty. I don't know. I'm sure I'm in the minority with my opinion on it, but... well...