[WoW] 2.4/Sunwell Info - Page 3

Tindel · 12-20-2007, 03:41 PM

Because getting good pvp gear in WoW is hard and requires so much time?

Runnen · 12-20-2007, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodin

I'm really curious what ripped his wings the fuck off - that's something you don't see too often.

Well, not only did he get his wings ripped the fuck off, but it also looks like he lost an eye, both tusks, both hands (though I guess the weapons-graft for hands could be a choice, see the Fel Orcs for instance..). I'd wager that happened either when he displeased Kil'Jaeden big time, or perhaps when he tried to catch that Naaru (there is a reference to a Dark Naaru, so I'm assuming it was captured and corrupted over time..).

I really like how Blizzard manages to reuse models (or rather their basic skeleton) and changes small details here and there to make them look different. Sure is better than EQ1's recycling of the same mobs for several expansions with only their size and DPS changing slightly.

Now of course I'd prefer if Blizzard could create individual models for each and every monster, but I understand that's not quite realistic in the industry, so I'm quite content with inspired reimagining and the occasional new model thrown in..

Bixxby · 12-20-2007, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tindel

Because getting good pvp gear in WoW is hard and requires so much time?

Do you even fucking play WoW? Honor grind takes forever and arena gear is only obtainable once a week. It might not be "hard" but it sure takes plenty of time.

fat12 · 12-20-2007, 04:09 PM

It's too late for WoW to become a bad ass world pvp game unless they add a pvp only server. The only viable direction in pvp terms for WoW which I find to be the main draw for any MMO is its arena pvp. E-sports WoW would definitely be a good thing. It'd introduce a whole new level of competition if they started adding online and LAN tournaments.

darksensei · 12-20-2007, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fat12

It's too late for WoW to become a bad ass world pvp game unless they add a pvp only server. The only viable direction in pvp terms for WoW which I find to be the main draw for any MMO is its arena pvp. E-sports WoW would definitely be a good thing. It'd introduce a whole new level of competition if they started adding online and LAN tournaments.

Monthly tournaments would be pretty awesome, especially if they had a spectator mode for people. I know the competition doesn't really get intense between teams until a week or two before the season is over.

Rotanee · 12-20-2007, 05:04 PM

I think the more people watch those tournaments, who already play wow, the more people will realize and become aware of the actual extent of class imbalances, and the amount of counter compositions there are.

That is to say, it's often not about your skill, it's about what the composition of the other team is compared to your team.

Probably because I have way to much time, reading around after the last two tournaments (3v3 in both, 2v2 in one) those were the two biggest complaints from most of the spectators, and even the commentator of the live stream. Even members of the professional teams talked about the counter compositions, and how to deal with it, and the amount of disadantages there are associated with it.

2's were just limited to much to druid/something combination, priest/something combination.

3's seemed to be probably the best format. A bit more action than 2's, not as complicated as 5's. The commentator was able to basically keep up with what was going on. Again though, counter composition teams were a large part of the key to winning in this bracket.

I really don't see 5's being a good esport, because if you don't know what each class does, you're never going to be able to follow it on a live stream. There are way to many people doing way to many things, a commentator can't keep up. Talking about balance in this context does no good.

Rotanee · 12-20-2007, 05:04 PM

double post. It was that good.

Dyscord · 12-20-2007, 05:08 PM

I'm pretty sure the pvp changes aren't to have anything to do with Gear. Losing to people who have better gear than you is just part of the overall game, and probably a pretty concious design decision to force people to play more to gear up to be able to compete.

What needs to change though, in my mind, is the fact that so much of wow pvp is rock/paper/scissors. As far as arenas go, your class composition far far outweighs any degree of skills of the participants. Its of course, most obvious in the 2's bracket, which is also the most imbalanced due to the horrible way that classes in pvp interact with each other.

Like I roll in 2's as a resto druid/rogue team. We're both pretty decent players, we both have T6 and assorted S3 epics, etc. But its not a 'killer' class composition. If we come up against a warrior/healer team, or a icemage/rogue team, we're pretty much done for. The only way to win against power combos is for the other team to be ridiculously bad at game.

And thats a huge problem, becuase pvp is pretty stale. You CONSTANTLY face the same class combos over and over and over and over and over again. Warrior/druid. Warlock/SPriest. Hunter/druid. etc. I really wish blizzard would try to encourage a little bit of thinking outside the box, or unorthadox pvp combinations, becuase i'm really tired of fighting a 15 minute losing battle against Team Retreat (warrior/druid). Or losing after 20 minutes to a hunter/druid simply because I spent that last 10 minutes oom.

RiskyChris · 12-20-2007, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rotanee

2's were just limited to much to druid/something combination, priest/something combination.

3's seemed to be probably the best format. A bit more action than 2's, not as complicated as 5's. The commentator was able to basically keep up with what was going on. Again though, counter composition teams were a large part of the key to winning in this bracket.

I really don't see 5's being a good esport, because if you don't know what each class does, you're never going to be able to follow it on a live stream. There are way to many people doing way to many things, a commentator can't keep up. Talking about balance in this context does no good.

Agreed on all accounts, by far 3s is my favorite bracket to play and watch. 5s is basically a clusterfuck, and watching is fucking blows.

Hopefully arenas will be in Blizzard's mind for the balance at level 80.

Surlok TP · 12-20-2007, 05:12 PM

E-Sports at like CPL level will never have a game like WoW in it and Blizzard is fantasizing if they think they could actually pull it off.

Forget the issues with gear and forget the issues with current Class imbalances in a team based arena. Blizzard balances classes currently with Rock/Paper/Scissors in mind. IE certain classes are designed to fail VS others assuming equal gear and skill.

That won't fly in high end leagues, it's why games like the Battlefield series since BF2 aren't supported, Dice wanted to give new players a chance against veteran FPS players and so created the cone of fire,which randomizes your shots. The randomness of Attacks in WoW can and is minimalized by resilience, but the classes having Achilles heels VS X class won't fly in a professional environment and I highly doubt WoW would ever be able to create a PVP balance that resulted in every class being perfectly equipped to singularly Attack and Defend against any other class in the game without utterly destroying the PVE aspect of the game.

The only way to really do it is to create scenarios where players had to only play one specific spec to compete and that competition was between the exact same class spec.

Then you have all the fuckheads that are only concerned about a gear advantage and how it was so much work to get it and they deserve to win and be crowned champions,taking their ball and going home.

Rotanee · 12-20-2007, 05:19 PM

LOL. In the last tournament, all the players got stock equipment for stock toons. No enchants, limited gear choices. Gear was made to be on an even par.

Says a lot about Blizz's awareness of certain issues, and how the game itself functions.

RiskyChris · 12-20-2007, 05:27 PM

I always thought a 1v1 bracket where you were only allowed to go against your own class would be a total blast. Give players a separate talent allocation that auto-switches when you enter a 1v1 arena, that way you can have your 1v1 spec ready to go.

Drajakur · 12-20-2007, 05:29 PM

Any idea when this is supposed to happen?

I want to make sure I max my honor before they fuck BGs into oblivion. Arenas have had a bad enough impact on the game as a whole, but chirst knows what all this nonsense about e-sports and that shit portends.

Dynalisia · 12-20-2007, 05:40 PM

Stop thinking that Blizzard won't completely uncouple the competitive arena segment from the rest of the game. Quality games is what made Blizzard's brand big, but eSports is what made it huge. If they will have to make the eSports arenas a completely seperate metagame inside WoW, with diffirently balanced mechanics and abilities for classes, then I don't rule that out for a second.

RiskyChris · 12-20-2007, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dynalisia

Stop thinking that Blizzard won't completely uncouple the competitive arena segment from the rest of the game. Quality games is what made Blizzard's brand big, but eSports is what made it huge. If they will have to make the eSports arenas a completely seperate metagame inside WoW, with diffirently balanced mechanics and abilities for classes, then I don't rule that out for a second.

And that would single-handedly revive all my faith in Blizzard. Separate PvE/PvP mechanics are long overdue.

Blizzard can make it happen, it's just a wonder if they'll try. WoW e-games would be absolutely insane for boosting WoW's popularity.

12-20-2007, 05:04 PM	#37 (permalink)
Rotanee Banned Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 836 +0 Internets	double post. It was that good. Last edited by Rotanee; 12-20-2007 at 05:12 PM..

12-20-2007, 05:27 PM	#42 (permalink)
RiskyChris Safety Dance Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: West Lafayette Posts: 5,702 -1 Internets	I always thought a 1v1 bracket where you were only allowed to go against your own class would be a total blast. Give players a separate talent allocation that auto-switches when you enter a 1v1 arena, that way you can have your 1v1 spec ready to go. __________________

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12-20-2007, 03:41 PM	#31 (permalink)
Tindel Rar Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 335 +0 Internets	Because getting good pvp gear in WoW is hard and requires so much time?

12-20-2007, 04:09 PM	#34 (permalink)
fat12 Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: ATX Posts: 306 -8 Internets	It's too late for WoW to become a bad ass world pvp game unless they add a pvp only server. The only viable direction in pvp terms for WoW which I find to be the main draw for any MMO is its arena pvp. E-sports WoW would definitely be a good thing. It'd introduce a whole new level of competition if they started adding online and LAN tournaments.

12-20-2007, 05:04 PM	#36 (permalink)
Rotanee Banned Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 836 +0 Internets	I think the more people watch those tournaments, who already play wow, the more people will realize and become aware of the actual extent of class imbalances, and the amount of counter compositions there are. That is to say, it's often not about your skill, it's about what the composition of the other team is compared to your team. Probably because I have way to much time, reading around after the last two tournaments (3v3 in both, 2v2 in one) those were the two biggest complaints from most of the spectators, and even the commentator of the live stream. Even members of the professional teams talked about the counter compositions, and how to deal with it, and the amount of disadantages there are associated with it. 2's were just limited to much to druid/something combination, priest/something combination. 3's seemed to be probably the best format. A bit more action than 2's, not as complicated as 5's. The commentator was able to basically keep up with what was going on. Again though, counter composition teams were a large part of the key to winning in this bracket. I really don't see 5's being a good esport, because if you don't know what each class does, you're never going to be able to follow it on a live stream. There are way to many people doing way to many things, a commentator can't keep up. Talking about balance in this context does no good.

12-20-2007, 05:08 PM	#38 (permalink)
Dyscord Harvey Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Command Carrier Posts: 2,163 +34 Internets	I'm pretty sure the pvp changes aren't to have anything to do with Gear. Losing to people who have better gear than you is just part of the overall game, and probably a pretty concious design decision to force people to play more to gear up to be able to compete. What needs to change though, in my mind, is the fact that so much of wow pvp is rock/paper/scissors. As far as arenas go, your class composition far far outweighs any degree of skills of the participants. Its of course, most obvious in the 2's bracket, which is also the most imbalanced due to the horrible way that classes in pvp interact with each other. Like I roll in 2's as a resto druid/rogue team. We're both pretty decent players, we both have T6 and assorted S3 epics, etc. But its not a 'killer' class composition. If we come up against a warrior/healer team, or a icemage/rogue team, we're pretty much done for. The only way to win against power combos is for the other team to be ridiculously bad at game. And thats a huge problem, becuase pvp is pretty stale. You CONSTANTLY face the same class combos over and over and over and over and over again. Warrior/druid. Warlock/SPriest. Hunter/druid. etc. I really wish blizzard would try to encourage a little bit of thinking outside the box, or unorthadox pvp combinations, becuase i'm really tired of fighting a 15 minute losing battle against Team Retreat (warrior/druid). Or losing after 20 minutes to a hunter/druid simply because I spent that last 10 minutes oom.

12-20-2007, 05:12 PM	#40 (permalink)
Surlok TP Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vancouver BC Posts: 2,038	E-Sports at like CPL level will never have a game like WoW in it and Blizzard is fantasizing if they think they could actually pull it off. Forget the issues with gear and forget the issues with current Class imbalances in a team based arena. Blizzard balances classes currently with Rock/Paper/Scissors in mind. IE certain classes are designed to fail VS others assuming equal gear and skill. That won't fly in high end leagues, it's why games like the Battlefield series since BF2 aren't supported, Dice wanted to give new players a chance against veteran FPS players and so created the cone of fire,which randomizes your shots. The randomness of Attacks in WoW can and is minimalized by resilience, but the classes having Achilles heels VS X class won't fly in a professional environment and I highly doubt WoW would ever be able to create a PVP balance that resulted in every class being perfectly equipped to singularly Attack and Defend against any other class in the game without utterly destroying the PVE aspect of the game. The only way to really do it is to create scenarios where players had to only play one specific spec to compete and that competition was between the exact same class spec. Then you have all the fuckheads that are only concerned about a gear advantage and how it was so much work to get it and they deserve to win and be crowned champions,taking their ball and going home.

12-20-2007, 05:19 PM	#41 (permalink)
Rotanee Banned Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 836 +0 Internets	LOL. In the last tournament, all the players got stock equipment for stock toons. No enchants, limited gear choices. Gear was made to be on an even par. Says a lot about Blizz's awareness of certain issues, and how the game itself functions.

12-20-2007, 05:29 PM	#43 (permalink)
Drajakur I have a competition in me. Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: In the clinch. Posts: 816 +20 Internets	Any idea when this is supposed to happen? I want to make sure I max my honor before they fuck BGs into oblivion. Arenas have had a bad enough impact on the game as a whole, but chirst knows what all this nonsense about e-sports and that shit portends.

12-20-2007, 05:40 PM	#44 (permalink)
Dynalisia Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The land of sunshine Posts: 1,669	Stop thinking that Blizzard won't completely uncouple the competitive arena segment from the rest of the game. Quality games is what made Blizzard's brand big, but eSports is what made it huge. If they will have to make the eSports arenas a completely seperate metagame inside WoW, with diffirently balanced mechanics and abilities for classes, then I don't rule that out for a second.