Some of you people are weird masochists: Why do you support random loot drops?

[mutantmagnet]

Last year I suggested in the Vanguard forums that drops be tailored so that loot drop rolls are based on the participants on an individual level and not on what the developers believe should be dropping in a dungeon. The majority of responses were negatively against this.

Just today I visited the wow raids and dungeon forum to see this post which offers an alternative more extreme idea of what I proposed. Not surprisingly the raiding community is divided, and based on the commentary there are slightly more people against this idea than for it.

So my question is, could you honestly say you haven't seen first hand guilds break apart or key players leave, which in turn greatly hinders the raid's progression, because the loot was taking so long to drop or was dropping in an unfair manner, it helped fuel social drama?

[Tuco]

I think this forum has been very pro-tokenized loot drops throughout the last half decade at least.

I for one hope that most loot based rewards come in the form of tokenized loot in the future. It isn't 'exciting', 'fun' or 'rewarding' to be denied loot. In an end-game guild the loot process is more like receiving a paycheck than it is like getting the best toy from a toy vending machine, and when you get denied your paycheck it doesn't make you feel better when you get the next one.

edit: Toy vending machines are bullshit too, you can never get the watches, only the stupid slime.

[Vatoreus]

Token based loot systems are a far cry above random loot drops, hands down.

[Zehn - Vhex]

The suggestion I liked that we poured some debating into a few years ago...

Step 1) To solve this random bullshit: Mob drops everything on it's loot table worth varying degree's, players get to pick/choose which items they want.

Step 2) To solve the whole DKP retardation: Itemization is redesigned such that all items are based entirely on multiple sockets. Bosses drop 5-10 different kinds of items for said sockets, each player gets to choose one (faster but smaller upgrades basically.)

But this gets kinda fucked up in a game like WoW where PvP is a viable alternative path yet rewards failure. You could either only give honor/arena points when you win, plus you have to first buy all the level 60 gear, then the level 70 gear, then arena season 1 gear, then season 2 gear, then season 3 gear.

And then you devolve into the whole "PvE vs. PvP" argument of which we already have 2-3 threads devoted to.
Or you could give people 'raid points' for every 20 minutes they spend in a raid zone and you get bonus raid points for killing bosses. Of course, raid points earned in Kara can be spent on BT gear.

[l0z]

It's the question of whether you like gambling or whether you like payoff through effort. Good luck convincing everyone that they should agree on one or the other.

[Kolle]

I've been against random drops for a very long time. We've talked about it on this board and my opinion is the same as when I posted on it years ago. You should be able to choose the loot you want when you kill a boss. This goes for 5man and raids.

Unfortunately it's not the players you need to convince. Random loot drops is one of the major mechanisms devs use to keep people playing and paying longer.

[Rezz]

Yeah, I don't think I've heard too many people not wanting endgame loot on some form of token system to get rid of the "lol pally weapon" shit from EQ and again in early wow. But the token system should be more of a generalized token, not set up in a manner that would still promote rot. Gear simply shouldn't rot off a current mmo boss unless everyone in the raid has every possible drop they want off the boss, and this shouldn't be done through some random generation of possible drops based on class/archetype to extend the farm time required.

You could go halfway and one up the WoW system by having a set loot table drop along with these omni tokens, but still having the tokens be usable by any class for any slot of the appropriate tier. I've seen a few too many repeat instances where the paladin tanks have all their tanking gear and a few pieces from the dps and healing sets, but the tanking warriors are in a halfass mix in their primary tank selection due to random drops.

[Rezz]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Step 2) To solve the whole DKP retardation: Itemization is redesigned such that all items are based entirely on multiple sockets. Bosses drop 5-10 different kinds of items for said sockets, each player gets to choose one (faster but smaller upgrades basically.)

I'd actually like to see a similar system to this. When sockets were introduced in WoW I was all like "shit yeah, I can customize my tanking armor to do multiple roles!" And was greeted with "Hey there's 3 sets for every class, sockets are retarded/pointless and simply a money sink!"

Granted there's not really three sets for every class, but I like the idea of a single progressive set that you can socket to better fit your role, but it was unquestionably the best at that level. Hell, make it so that there's an appearance socket on the gear that you can upgrade to give yourself a cooler look as well. Making loot entirely socket based would be interesting, to say the least. Do you mean the extreme like your generic "weapon" slot has a socket to determine what type of weapon it is, and then it's stats through the socketees, or a more mellow version where you get your T1 sword that has better base stats that are further amplified than previous T.5 swords?

[Northerner]

I'm all for hand-crafted loot that drops from specific bosses for specific classes/roles. Seriously, it's kind of fun to be wondering if Archi has a ToC this time or Illidan a warglaive. Just distributing preset tokens would be boring as hell.

I'd agreed that the present system isn't working too well though. Loot streaks are one thing but the PvE game is filled with flat out shitty loot tables that don't fill the needs of most raids.

[Mist]

I think they should just throw more loot at players, starting at the dungeon level and way up in the raid level. Random loot from a loot table, class token loot, badge vendor loot, randomly generated stat items, quest rewards, dozens of different trinkets and gems... loot loot and more loot everyfucking where. Considering games, particularly WoW, are just throwing easy + inevitable loot at casual players, they should compensate high end raiders by just giving them greater volumes and more choices of loot.

[Pilsbane]

I don't like a 100% token-based system. A partial system is fine, but I like at least some item drops. There is something appealing about seeing überboss01 wielding a badass sword and then dropping that sword after your guild has killed him.

[Suineg]

We did hand-crafted loot in PoP and you people hated it.

Tokens are kind of a mix of good and bad.

Good
- You get to pick your loot.
- You gear up quicker.

Bad
- You get to pick your loot.
- The tokens are slot specific.

Why would that be a good and bad thing picking loot? Good because it's all about you and what you want and bad because of the same thing. Who's to say you are using those hard earned tokens for good PvE loot and not PvP crap that does mediocre in PvE? The guild as a whole doesn't necessarily win all the time. The RNG type can totally screw you or totally shine in your favor.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Rezz

I'd actually like...

iirc, you would be able to aquire various base items with different multipliers and whatnot. Different socket types as well. A T2 sword might have more high level slots then a T1 sword, while a crafted sword might have two slots that double the effect of any crafted socket put into those slots.

And it's not like you couldn't have defined items as well. Nothing says in a largely socket-based game you can't have your occasional legendary that pertains to lore. Yes I enjoy the big badass dude drop his big badass sword. What doesn't make sense is the big badass dude also dropping two pairs of pants and a recipe for chicken gumbo.

It makes more sense too honestly. I used this example way back when, but why exactly does Ragnaros carry pants on him? Wouldn't it make more sense that players can choose whether to aquire some 'essence of ragnaros' or something which when socketed by a warrior to a weapon give it a 5% chance to proc a fire dmg/debuff? Or it can be socketed by a mage to a cloak to grant a 5% chance to cause your fire based spells to 'bounce' a la chain lightning. Or a priest can attach it to his chest item such that their heals also reduce the damage taken by fire based spells by 150 for 6 seconds.

Etc....

[splok]

There's only one thing wrong with random drops and that's the no-drop flag. Random drops make sense as a way to promote trade assuming that you can actually, you know, trade. However, whether or not it is appropriate is entirely a function of the game's greater design.

[daishinzo]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

iirc, you would be able to aquire various base items with different multipliers and whatnot. Different socket types as well. A T2 sword might have more high level slots then a T1 sword, while a crafted sword might have two slots that double the effect of any crafted socket put into those slots.

And it's not like you couldn't have defined items as well. Nothing says in a largely socket-based game you can't have your occasional legendary that pertains to lore. Yes I enjoy the big badass dude drop his big badass sword. What doesn't make sense is the big badass dude also dropping two pairs of pants and a recipe for chicken gumbo.

It makes more sense too honestly. I used this example way back when, but why exactly does Ragnaros carry pants on him? Wouldn't it make more sense that players can choose whether to aquire some 'essence of ragnaros' or something which when socketed by a warrior to a weapon give it a 5% chance to proc a fire dmg/debuff? Or it can be socketed by a mage to a cloak to grant a 5% chance to cause your fire based spells to 'bounce' a la chain lightning. Or a priest can attach it to his chest item such that their heals also reduce the damage taken by fire based spells by 150 for 6 seconds.

Etc....

Trying to bring any sort of realism be it your version of how fantasy should go or actual real life attributes is fail on an epic scale because that just opens up thousands upon thousands of things that would need to be altered to fit whatever pseudo realism x person wants.

Random loot keeps people playing. No MMO wants people to quit cause they beat content and geared up in a few months.

$$$$$$ is all that matters.