Some of you people are weird masochists: Why do you support random loot drops? - Page 3

Plorkyeran · 12-17-2007, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xequecal

Oh, Fang of the Leviathan and and Bloodmaw Magus-Blade are technically upgrades, but if you ever actually loot one of these, the resultant cacophony of Mage/Warlock whining will probably leave you senile.

You can't loot one of those without casters whining, but you think that you could loot a token which would turn into an equivalent item without just as much whining? If a guild doesn't think gearing up a certain class/spec is useful, nonrandom loot makes them get fewer drops, not more.

Xequecal · 12-17-2007, 02:11 AM

I was thinking more along the lines of a system where every boss drops a Badge of XXXXXX specific to that boss for every player in the raid, that boss' loot table is on a vendor, and every item requires a certain number of badges from that boss to purchase.

Arbitrary · 12-17-2007, 02:17 AM

Personally I'd rather have loot not be the driving force in the advancement of a character anymore.

RiskyChris · 12-17-2007, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xequecal

I was thinking more along the lines of a system where every boss drops a Badge of XXXXXX specific to that boss for every player in the raid, that boss' loot table is on a vendor, and every item requires a certain number of badges from that boss to purchase.

Yeah, that's how I'd like it to be done. The badges effectively replace what DKP is supposed to provide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arbitrary

Personally I'd rather have loot not be the driving force in the advancement of a character anymore.

This would also be cool.

Miele · 12-17-2007, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arbitrary

Personally I'd rather have loot not be the driving force in the advancement of a character anymore.

I agree, I just don't see how, but after all I'm not paid to think about a solution.

Rezz · 12-17-2007, 02:42 AM

Permanent stat bonuses/skills for getting flagged for having beaten an encounter. Added caps to skill ratings to increase your effectiveness. I'm unsure how one could advance a character beyond that for having completed content. If the advancement is simply notoriety, you're gonna have a hard time convincing the general populous that it's a good system.

Arbitrary · 12-17-2007, 03:06 AM

I think expanding upon FFX1s multi-class system and combining that with an alternative advancement system, complex faction system, raiding, and PvP could keep players from ever logging off ever.

daishinzo · 12-17-2007, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arbitrary

I think expanding upon FFX1s multi-class system and combining that with an alternative advancement system, complex faction system, raiding, and PvP could keep players from ever logging off ever.

I'd be all for an FFXI style job system/merit system etc with WoWs user friendliness especially since I've rolled so many max level characters in WoW and almost every other MMO since I get bored so fast once I hit cap and gear out. Would definately keep my business longer that way.

Drauk · 12-17-2007, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiskyChris

I don't know if it's been changed, but there was a legitimate statistical survey done sometime in WoW's first year that showed that Blizzard's RNG was flawed, big time. Basically, it said that statistically there was no way for the strange drop rates to occur for so many guilds.

No, it was very flawed methodology, whoever did that had very little understanding of theory of probability and statistics.

Burf · 12-17-2007, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Believe

What they need to do is make bosses drop items that can be turned in with other easier acquired items to make epic items.

It'd been a few years for me, but they did this in EQ. Go to ToV, kill dragons, get a "bracer." Take that "bracer" run into another area, up a shitload of stairs, then turn in the "bracer" and some gems to a guy. He then gives you back "neat bracer that does stuff."

I remember doing this, I just can't remember the names of the places.

Kreugen · 12-17-2007, 07:02 AM

Heh, I can just picture killing Illidan for the first time and going "whoop! Now we just have to kill him 23 more times before any of us get loot!"

Or even better

"Woot, illidan kill #47, off to a gnome vendor standing outside to buy Illidain's Warglaive!"

... yeah. Sucks but true, killing a mob to get the items its wearing makes more sense. Of course you should also have the item that you turn in for a class specific reward on ALL mobs, not just a few, but that doesn't make sense for everything. In EQ the trophy loot was always friggin awesome for most classes, WoW should expand on this. But for fucks sake keep tradeskills out of it. Reading that made me puke.

WoW's item problem is you have 20 fucking classes with unique loot for each. EQ got around this by making practically everything cross-class or even universal. That wouldn't work in WoW because the shit would be way too powerful for some class. (item has equal points agi, str, sta, +damage, but the ilevel only counts 2 stats. Fine for war/rogue/casters.. fucking broken for druids/hunters)

The main thing I'm against is any token system where you get the same tokens no matter what you kill and you just save up a bunch to buy whatever. Then you're back to welfare epics - a full clear of Kara will get you heroic badges faster, but they're all the same badges for all the same loot. There has to be tiers. And then of course you'd have to balance the tiers. Killing Archimonde is a far cry from Illidan, yet technically it'd be the same tier. Would you then have different tokens for loot from every mob, that you save up and then take to a vend-o-matic to get your loot? Yuck. That's what I think people usually have in mind when they say tokens.

I'd rather expand on what EQ did - mob drops its head, a broken piece of its weapon, whatever, and that becomes a class specific loot. Call it a Trophy system. Technically all of its loot could be done this way, but it would be cumbersome and awkward. Kill mob, get 25 tells for every single fucking drop, then sit through "hay guys gonna go turn my thigh bone in for lewtz, brb 20" Pain. In. The. Ass. Loot council's head would collectively explode.

Anyway, just showing why designers throw up in their mouths a little at the idea.

Plaeroma · 12-17-2007, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Believe

Dragon boss drops tooth.

Tooth can be used to make a Dragon Tooth Dagger (Rogue), Dragontooth Necklace (Tanking), or Dragontooth trinket (DPS Caster).

Perhaps for a Rogue with the Dragontooth, a blacksmith in some city will (for a small fee) take the tooth, some ores, and some some leather to make him the dagger. Etc.

Perhaps for 'legendary' items it could require multiple boss drops. Dragontooth, Warlord's hilt, etc.

I like this cause it's like tokens with in character flair. WoW had a little bit of this with head turn ins, but those always seemed wierd to me. I've just never been fond of quests where some guy has some super badass item and is holding out on you till you go do some hard task. Shouldn't he just give you the dragonslayer's ring BEFORE you fight the fucking dragon? Meh.

This token with flair system might get a little old after awhile though.

Zerai · 12-17-2007, 08:13 AM

What is fun about random loot..is going to a dungeon and getting loot right then.

PVP rewards were depressing. Yes, I know if I do this bg x times, I can get x item but my god, instead of hiding the treadmill, they stick it in your face and it burns me out.

Yeah, there are a lot of times when you run raid instances and nothing you want drops, but then, the next time, it could drop that time right there in front of you. And it really works on the want shit right then mentality.

I had this discussion with a friend of mine. And thats basically how it came out, we both prefered loot drops over x tokens. Stuff like the Naxx armor pieces and that sort of thing are fine though. Or whatever they do for loot now I dont even know I haven't raided in TBC. Think it's tokens I guess.

Overall, they need to have some smart loot dropping. Like when you enter the instance, and you don't have a paladin, then paladin loot won't fucking drop. That is hands down the worst part about random loot. Not that someone else can use it, no, that no one can use it. Pisses me off. That is what was nice about oldschool D&D which is where the random loot came from, but you had a DM right there in front of you who knows the class makeup of the group and what pieces of loot they'd want. But in MMOs they need to do something smart with loot dropping.

Luthair · 12-17-2007, 08:29 AM

I'm not a statistician but I believe that the Vulak/Aten style loot system helps, their loot was divided into smaller pools, and only one item could drop from each pool.

Agraza · 12-17-2007, 08:31 AM

There are plenty of ways to hand out loot in a granular fashion, ways where you decide what you're getting as you go along. The tooth -> dagger example is a good one. We can also unlock quests and rewards from faction. I liked Velious's counter-faction setup a lot for this.

I don't think random loot should ever be replaced or removed altogether. It should be downplayed and the players should be given other methods of enhancing upon the system, but looting the dragon and getting even a component shouldn't be a measurable quantity at any given point. There should always be some anticipation when the mob dies, a sense of suspense looming over your group.

They can make player skills play into loot as well, though not simply as some pitiful 100% guaranteed return timesink after the fact. I've always been interested in making loot an aspect of the game that we have some control over. For example, in EVE there is a little bit of enhancement on looting like salvaging slightly more complex rewards from your conquests instead of some irradiated metal and burnt cargo. In KOTOR if you choose to BREAK a storage container rather than defeat the electronic security you often get a little less for your efforts due to damaging the goods. Why can't these be placed, in small scale, into MMOs?

If we kill the dragon with X method it might give us ABC. If we kill it with Y method we might only get B and C. This could apply to everything from wolves to wyverns. Loot doesn't always need to be a result of the aftermath. You ought to be able to take part in your endeavors from the beginning of combat. Obviously if you kill every wolf with a fireball you're not going to walk away with High Quality Wolf Pelts, and yet this happens everyday in EverQuest.

I might be reaching, but I think it would be interesting to actually tailor the way you fight your enemy to the rewards you're trying to recover. It might be that the super awesome orange weapon can only be obtained from defeating Illidan in the manner that is least advantageous to your accumulated forces, thus giving you several versions of the exact same boss that drop different subsets or amounts of loot.

12-17-2007, 02:42 AM	#36 (permalink)
Rezz Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,308 -1 Internets	Permanent stat bonuses/skills for getting flagged for having beaten an encounter. Added caps to skill ratings to increase your effectiveness. I'm unsure how one could advance a character beyond that for having completed content. If the advancement is simply notoriety, you're gonna have a hard time convincing the general populous that it's a good system. __________________ Jesus on the dashboard, Whenever it feels right.

12-17-2007, 07:02 AM	#41 (permalink)
Kreugen Fires of Heaven Ancient Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3,139 +71 Internets	Heh, I can just picture killing Illidan for the first time and going "whoop! Now we just have to kill him 23 more times before any of us get loot!" Or even better "Woot, illidan kill #47, off to a gnome vendor standing outside to buy Illidain's Warglaive!" ... yeah. Sucks but true, killing a mob to get the items its wearing makes more sense. Of course you should also have the item that you turn in for a class specific reward on ALL mobs, not just a few, but that doesn't make sense for everything. In EQ the trophy loot was always friggin awesome for most classes, WoW should expand on this. But for fucks sake keep tradeskills out of it. Reading that made me puke. WoW's item problem is you have 20 fucking classes with unique loot for each. EQ got around this by making practically everything cross-class or even universal. That wouldn't work in WoW because the shit would be way too powerful for some class. (item has equal points agi, str, sta, +damage, but the ilevel only counts 2 stats. Fine for war/rogue/casters.. fucking broken for druids/hunters) The main thing I'm against is any token system where you get the same tokens no matter what you kill and you just save up a bunch to buy whatever. Then you're back to welfare epics - a full clear of Kara will get you heroic badges faster, but they're all the same badges for all the same loot. There has to be tiers. And then of course you'd have to balance the tiers. Killing Archimonde is a far cry from Illidan, yet technically it'd be the same tier. Would you then have different tokens for loot from every mob, that you save up and then take to a vend-o-matic to get your loot? Yuck. That's what I think people usually have in mind when they say tokens. I'd rather expand on what EQ did - mob drops its head, a broken piece of its weapon, whatever, and that becomes a class specific loot. Call it a Trophy system. Technically all of its loot could be done this way, but it would be cumbersome and awkward. Kill mob, get 25 tells for every single fucking drop, then sit through "hay guys gonna go turn my thigh bone in for lewtz, brb 20" Pain. In. The. Ass. Loot council's head would collectively explode. Anyway, just showing why designers throw up in their mouths a little at the idea. Last edited by Kreugen; 12-17-2007 at 07:16 AM..

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12-17-2007, 02:11 AM	#32 (permalink)
Xequecal Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,744 -27 Internets	I was thinking more along the lines of a system where every boss drops a Badge of XXXXXX specific to that boss for every player in the raid, that boss' loot table is on a vendor, and every item requires a certain number of badges from that boss to purchase.

12-17-2007, 08:13 AM	#43 (permalink)
Zerai ~ Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An Igloo Posts: 3,872 +6 Internets	What is fun about random loot..is going to a dungeon and getting loot right then. PVP rewards were depressing. Yes, I know if I do this bg x times, I can get x item but my god, instead of hiding the treadmill, they stick it in your face and it burns me out. Yeah, there are a lot of times when you run raid instances and nothing you want drops, but then, the next time, it could drop that time right there in front of you. And it really works on the want shit right then mentality. I had this discussion with a friend of mine. And thats basically how it came out, we both prefered loot drops over x tokens. Stuff like the Naxx armor pieces and that sort of thing are fine though. Or whatever they do for loot now I dont even know I haven't raided in TBC. Think it's tokens I guess. Overall, they need to have some smart loot dropping. Like when you enter the instance, and you don't have a paladin, then paladin loot won't fucking drop. That is hands down the worst part about random loot. Not that someone else can use it, no, that no one can use it. Pisses me off. That is what was nice about oldschool D&D which is where the random loot came from, but you had a DM right there in front of you who knows the class makeup of the group and what pieces of loot they'd want. But in MMOs they need to do something smart with loot dropping.

12-17-2007, 08:29 AM	#44 (permalink)
Luthair Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,538	I'm not a statistician but I believe that the Vulak/Aten style loot system helps, their loot was divided into smaller pools, and only one item could drop from each pool.

12-17-2007, 08:31 AM	#45 (permalink)
Agraza Issh good, no? Join Date: May 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 2,043	There are plenty of ways to hand out loot in a granular fashion, ways where you decide what you're getting as you go along. The tooth -> dagger example is a good one. We can also unlock quests and rewards from faction. I liked Velious's counter-faction setup a lot for this. I don't think random loot should ever be replaced or removed altogether. It should be downplayed and the players should be given other methods of enhancing upon the system, but looting the dragon and getting even a component shouldn't be a measurable quantity at any given point. There should always be some anticipation when the mob dies, a sense of suspense looming over your group. They can make player skills play into loot as well, though not simply as some pitiful 100% guaranteed return timesink after the fact. I've always been interested in making loot an aspect of the game that we have some control over. For example, in EVE there is a little bit of enhancement on looting like salvaging slightly more complex rewards from your conquests instead of some irradiated metal and burnt cargo. In KOTOR if you choose to BREAK a storage container rather than defeat the electronic security you often get a little less for your efforts due to damaging the goods. Why can't these be placed, in small scale, into MMOs? If we kill the dragon with X method it might give us ABC. If we kill it with Y method we might only get B and C. This could apply to everything from wolves to wyverns. Loot doesn't always need to be a result of the aftermath. You ought to be able to take part in your endeavors from the beginning of combat. Obviously if you kill every wolf with a fireball you're not going to walk away with High Quality Wolf Pelts, and yet this happens everyday in EverQuest. I might be reaching, but I think it would be interesting to actually tailor the way you fight your enemy to the rewards you're trying to recover. It might be that the super awesome orange weapon can only be obtained from defeating Illidan in the manner that is least advantageous to your accumulated forces, thus giving you several versions of the exact same boss that drop different subsets or amounts of loot.