Some of you people are weird masochists: Why do you support random loot drops?

[Vorph]

Originally Posted by RiskyChris

S1 should take almost no effort to farm. I've been 70 for 4 weeks now, and I still need S2 ring, S3 amulet, S1 wand, and the 2 minute trinket (have the 5 min one from years ago). I'm going insane.

Shit, I'm going insane from just getting the S1 weapon and nothing else. Horde won exactly ONE AV during the time I played this past weekend. Honor/hr average was under 500. I had planned to get the trinket too, but fuck that. It should cost about 5k, not 17k.

[Horse]

I love my situation.

I have T5 pve shadow shoulders, one of the last pieces without resilience on them. My top rating is 1760ish in 3v3 (it goes up every week about 50 points even though we are basically at 50% winrate). Needless to say, I'm way off from getting the S3 healing shoulders, so I'm looking at the options.

1. Grind battlegrounds for S1 + the other pieces I need. For reference I've pulled just over 75k since S3, when there were people who already had that banked for this season. Grats them. I still need 1 ring without resilience. Since starting at the beginning of S2, I've gotten honor for battlemaster, good pvp trinket (both are just crucial as a priest...), and belt. My neck, bracers and boots are s2 shadow so i really don't gain much survivability, so next up is the ring. Count all of that honor, and look at how many fucking battlegrounds you have to run giving a healthy 75% win ratio (or for the masochists, look at it if you have say 30%). It is insane.

2. Get badges. For some reason the pvp cloak is on badges. This means doing karazhan, za or heroics. That I've done. Hundreds of times. Before I needed badges for this.

3. Spend weeks of arena points getting... S2 shoulders. Unfortunately this is the best option. Paying to get what people had last season. Sure, I'm paying a trivial amount less and there isn't a major upgrade between S2 and S3, but this just sucks.


Just getting started in this is brutal. I'm still running around with a S1 shadow spellblade. 1850 is around the corner but saving up the 3 weeks to get the weapon once you're need/around 1850 is a retarded point-sink.

[Draegan]

Yup. I want to do some serious Arena PVP. But unfortunately I'm a Shaman and we're not that great. But I wouldn't mind leveling up a Rogue or a Warrior or a Druid to 70 just for PVPing in. Nothing but PVP, so fuck reputation etc. I refuse to do it. The thought of the 1-70 grind is not scary. It's sitting in BG's for hours and hours and hours running in circles that says, fuck it, I'll play some more COD4.

[Supacheal]

Originally Posted by Horse

Implying that someone getting shafted for months and complaining about it is equal to ADHD Diablo is silly, c'mon.

We all take our lumps with the RNG, some more than others. Way more. To the point that it makes you question the system in place that can essentially fuck someone to the point that they become embittered or quitting the game.

While it is convenient to counter the whines of someone fucked by drops with "it's all about the experience with friends and accomplishing new things!," well, that's usually said by people patting your frowning head with their fancy epic gloves on. As loyal as you might be to a guild, someone personally wants to represent their guild's successes. Nobody is proud, for long, that their one buddy got this one item.


The number one complaint from the casuals is that they don't want to raid or form raiding commitments because it isn't just "hey lets kill the boss once." It's the pyramid hump to the point that you can kill the boss:

week one: kill boss 1
week two: kill boss 1 and try boss 2
week three: kill boss 1 and kill boss 2 and try boss three
week four: kill boss 1 and kill boss 2 and kill boss 3. not geared enough for boss 4.
week five: kill boss 1 and kill boss 2 and kill boss 3. not geared enough for boss 4.
week six: kill boss 1 and kill boss 2 and kill boss 3. not geared enough for boss 4.
week seven: kill boss 1 and kill boss 2 and kill boss 3. not geared enough for boss 4, but got close.
week eight: kill boss 1 and kill boss 2 and kill boss 3 and kill boss 4 but not repeatable easily yet

etc.

Now toss in the RNG there. Some douchebag might be finished with everything they need as of week 3, and the next 5 weeks are just going through the rounds for them. People might leave, meaning you have to reclear shit.

The part about EQ that your rose colored glasses is omitting is that the implicit trust and message was very obvious: if you're doing this it is to help the guild first. You don't raid with 60+ people for 3 loots and not get that point clear. WoW doesn't have that because it sucked. Tokens in EQ was a joke not because tokens are bad, but because the way the fucking loot was handled in the game.

The entire "you've beaten this boss" is just ceremonial. Truly beating a boss is when you've farmed him so much that you no longer need to kill him.

This is why Vashj/Kael are such fucking pricks in a lot of people's sides and they're hellbent on getting them down: you can kill them and never do those dungeons again. That is exciting, that is a true reward.

I understand that raiders get frustrated with the randomness of mob drops. However, in reference to a token system, you can end up sitting in a raid knowing that most of the loot for the night is already pre-planned and set aside. To me, that seems more like work than entertainment.

Both the token system and the RNG system have flaws but I will still take the RNG compared to a pre-planned night of raiding equal to punching in my time card.

[The Ancient]

Originally Posted by Supacheal

I understand that raiders get frustrated with the randomness of mob drops. However, in reference to a token system, you can end up sitting in a raid knowing that most of the loot for the night is already pre-planned and set aside. To me, that seems more like work than entertainment.

Continuing to set foot in a dungeon you are already beyond sick of because you are hoping x set piece finally drops for y class is definately work.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Supacheal

I understand that raiders get frustrated with the randomness of mob drops. However, in reference to a token system, you can end up sitting in a raid knowing that most of the loot for the night is already pre-planned and set aside. To me, that seems more like work than entertainment.

Both the token system and the RNG system have flaws but I will still take the RNG compared to a pre-planned night of raiding equal to punching in my time card.

Why are folks confusing tokens with non-random? You can have, wow is, tokens + random.

A few posts back there was the simple solution of having the boss drop more loot than you're allowed to take, rather than less of its table but you can take all of it. Consider it this way. Lord of the Douchebags has a magical hand. You can loot that hand, but it is either going to be a pair of leather gloves "Claw Coverings", a dps wand "Rod of the Curled Nail" or a healer trinket "Benevolent Grip". Once you loot one of those items that's on the corpse, the others go away. Ta daah.



We went through a rough time in SSC/TK where literally zero cloth healing or DPS items dropped outside of the rare token. Our progression was slowed because of it because we brought a caster heavy raid. This wasn't intentional, it's just who we could get to fill that "DPS" role.

Knowing what's going where is exactly what happens when you dig a hole with the RNG. Your 5th month with no fucking hat from void reaver, all most raiders see is that when the thing finally drops they have 1 out of 10 chance of getting it, or, they're waiting for 10 to drop, etc. Horrible.

Punching a time card is when the first boss has the only item you want out of 10 that night, and it "randomly" doesn't drop. Really makes killing those other 9 a gas, o totally.

It is time to next-gen these loot practices. Master looter and the rubberization of the tools was a good first step, the next step is embedding logics of guild definable DKP systems built into the goddamned game, and intelligent drops. The only other solution is a token / turn-in based system.

[RiskyChris]

Originally Posted by Horse

all most raiders see is that when the thing finally drops they have 1 out of 10 chance of getting it, or, they're waiting for 10 to drop, etc. Horrible.

This is such a terrible feeling.

BTW, thanks to you guys, I'm likely joining a T6 guild this week. Guess I'll be raiding again after all.

[TheWoodenHorse]

I am for having boss mobs drop BOTH token and "random" loot in this way.

They drop the token that can then be turned in for NO DROP/BOE class specific armor, etc.

They also drop RANDOM TRADABLE items that are not superior to the token items, but are good "twink" items or good "saleable" items that people can roll on.

That way you fulfill two "wants". Those that want a specific reward for their efforts (via the tokens) and those that don't need the items but still deserve some reward for participating.

I'm all for loading up boss mobs with loot. Especially if those mobs require a group or more to kill.

What sucks is the scenario where it takes GROUPS of players to defeat and they drop 3 items.

YAY! for 3 of you and fuck off to the rest. Let's say you wipe once as well, which leads to half of your group leaving as the Risk vs. the Reward is dick.

Hmmmm 20+ in the raid, a total of 3 drops to be had = alot of people doing the raid for "fun" 2, 4, 6 times before they get one of those drops.

Drop grinding sucks and needs to go away.

[Bongk]

Originally Posted by TheWoodenHorse

What sucks is the scenario where it takes GROUPS of players to defeat and they drop 3 items.

YAY! for 3 of you and fuck off to the rest. Let's say you wipe once as well, which leads to half of your group leaving as the Risk vs. the Reward is dick.

Hmmmm 20+ in the raid, a total of 3 drops to be had = alot of people doing the raid for "fun" 2, 4, 6 times before they get one of those drops.

Drop grinding sucks and needs to go away.

So when you raid you only kill 1 mob? (never raided in wow, but i know in previous games we would take out 5+ targets which would be 15+ pieces of loot)

[OhSeven]

I have to agree with what Horse outlined again and whoever wrote it originally.

My guild had 4 paladins who were 7/8 Judgement and we spent MONTHS in BWL. All of us needed the bracers to be 8/8. Over 8 months in that place and from the first Razorgore kill until we finally took BWL off our raid scheadule did we ever see them drop even once. Shit like that should never happen if you put time in a zone you should get what you want out of and not have the RNG rape you in the ass week after week.

[TheWoodenHorse]

Originally Posted by Bongk

So when you raid you only kill 1 mob? (never raided in wow, but i know in previous games we would take out 5+ targets which would be 15+ pieces of loot)

No we had to kill every mob to get to that end mob. And what made it oh so fun was that 15+ pieces of loot that we all had already mean diddly shit if it was NO DROP/BOE because we would already have it.

Basically the MINI-Bosses turn into Yard Trash the 3rd or 4th time you have to clear them to get to the main boss.

"Fists of Mighty Assrape again!? Everybody already have 'em? Let 'em rot then."

There's no reason a whole "raid" should be trivialized for everyone involved except Paladin021356 of your party who needs 1 item from the very last boss.

I'm not saying everything should drop for everyone on the first go through. But make replayability WORTH IT for those who attend loot wise.

[Sanadebe]

You get loot to speed up clears
If you've already cleared the boss and you're now wiping to said boss, your loot level is fine, your skill level isn't. We have a guild on our server thats now split up. They were 3/5 in hyjal, went to attune some new members, spent 5 days wiping on Kael.
Notice the speed of which the Chinese guild killed Illidan and look at their gear - gear is not an excuse, its a crutch.

Loot is therefore not necessary by the time you've downed a boss, its simply the carrot on the stick that keeps raiders going - lets be honest, its not until you get to T6 that there is really an appreciable difference between the tiers of gear, t4/5 are pretty shit and much of a muchness.

This means that that rare loot coming along to reward you feels much better than "Don't forget to loot your *badges of wow this is fucking boring* and when we farm the only boss we can kill in this instance cause oh noes, we require gears to do this place cause its o-so-hard", you can get an item that you probably don't deserve and in the long run makes no real difference, cause if you sucked before you got one item, I can bet you will suck afterwards too.

[Dandain]

I still think people miss the point, raid zones are already on a 7 day lockout, there should be a mechanic to avoid sharding. ANY guild deserves 2 usable pieces of loot per boss downed per week. There is no reason that we should be getting half void crystals due to RNG. If you arn't a selfish fucker, this is a better arangement than the "omg I like random, because then my selfish ass might be able to cash in on 5 pieces of loot in one night but that 99% attendance guildie might get fucked for the 10th week".

If you think that a token system makes raiding like work, you are mentally retarded. What makes raiding like work is not being REWARDED for your time because you get moonkin braces of fucking dumb void crystal every god damn week when your guild doesn't even have a fucking moonkin to begin with. Or your priests quit because we've had 2 pieces of cloth drop in 6 months and they are fucking tired of never seeing an upgrade (who can blame them?). Oh god we fucking need another pair of DPS plate gloves. For the love of god, please drop more!

Tokenize this shit, so my guild members are rewarded for their time on farm content. We have 200 void crystals, we don't fucking need anymore. Its a mother fucking problem when your guild members try to figure out a fucking way to get 1850 arena rating because we need 15 DPS caster weapons to drop and we have a grand fucking total of 3 in 4 months.

You might think grinding BG's is fucking boring and it IS, but I just leveled a warlock to 70, 4 weeks before s3. I am fully PvP epic'd, I have 496 resilience, 1150 spell damage, and 12,300hp. Every single bit of effort I put into getting the arena points and honor, down to every 1 token battleground loss went right toward what I wanted. And guess what, it was awesome compared to the bullshit some of my guild members put up with in raiding on top of the gold and consumable cost. Random in raiding is bullshit. I am going to have a mainhand dps weapon superior to more than half of the dps casters in my Illidan killing guild in less than 4 months as a fresh 70, doing mostly solo and 3man group play.

[Thug]

Hmm, just some random thoughts about a pick-ur-purples system.

1) The idea of rare items goes away. (Already covered)

2) How long will a person who is low on dkp (should a guild use dkp) have to wait to get ANY item off a boss? Having a raid wide token that could go to any member means they will probably have to wait longer. Even on a merit system I think they may have to wait longer. Players are now no longer competing with other players who can actually use the item (usually a small subset of the raid) they are now competing with everybody. I dunno, I'd have to think on this some more.

3) If the majority of the guild had gotten all the loot they needed out of the zone by the time the guild really got say illidan on farm status. Would those members continue to show up to raid the whole instance just to get loot off illidan. What if they didnt need anything off him?

4) Adding to #3 if a guild had everything out of a particular instance save a few items off 1 or 2 bosses. Would the guild continue to even worry about progression in that instance or would they move on to the next?

5) Given that with the increased rate at which people will be gearing up due to guaranteed loot and the fact that nothing goes to waste. What happens when everything rots off the first 4 bosses and you only need stuff off the 5th and 6th. Would the amount of rot at that point equal what would have rotted given a random drop system provided you had to kill the 5th and 6th bosses X amount of times to get all the loot needed off them?

I spose its just a matter of where you want the rot to occur, either its all grouped up in a short period of time or spread across the entire cycle at a somewhat diminished rate of occurrence.


Just some random thoughts.

[Sancus]

Blizzard has a lot of room to improve their random loot system. For one thing, they ignore the average class makeup of raids when they're designing loot tables. You often have something dropping that at least 5-8 people in any given raid will want, and it has the same drop rate as something that only 2-3 people might want. That doesn't make any sense. Raid compositions don't vary THAT widely in BC, you aren't going to see raids with 4 resto druids, so why is the drop rate of (leather druid healing item) the same as the drop rate of (caster dps trinket that is good for warlocks, shadow priests, mages, elemental shaman, and moonkin)? That makes zero sense, yet you see this all over all the loot tables.

Add to this the fact that there is plenty of downright garbage itemization(no, we don't want your shitty no-socket, single-stat-spiked boots. Fuck off. Make balanced, socketed items.) wasting loot table slots, and you can see that, were Blizzard to work on making drop rates more sensible and making loot tables smaller but including more really good items and less crap, they could still improve things quite a bit without fundamentally changing the system.