[WoW] Why do raiders have to spend more then PVPers?

[FoghornDeadhorn]

This is a fair question, and I'm wondering if people are irritated about this the way I am.

1) PVPers have to pay a tiny fraction of the repair bills, to the extent that it's not even a factor. With the PVP daily I'd be surprised if someone who did nothing but PVP and run that daily quest would ever run a gold deficit from repairs.

2) Arena gear has a fraction of the gem slots. I wouldn't categorize this as a "major" expense but it does add up, especially for a class like warriors or feral druids who mostly have to have two sets of gear.

3) Arena, which is the main source of epic gear for PVPers, which is equivalent to raid gear for its purpose (better in the PVP enviornment of course), requires little-to-no consumables, the "little" being so inconsequential as to be utterly laughable. Arena players can go for eight hours and not have to repair and not have to replenish stocks and not be thinking "this is going to take some farming over the weekend..."

4) A non-raiding PVPer rarely has to respec, while a raider who PVPs is most likely respeccing twice a week.

A raiding PVPer not only has to deal with gemming and enchanting their PVE sets, but the (four total?) gems on their PVP sets (and enchants for those), repairs for their raiding, consumables for their raiding...and if you do both, you know the contrast I'm talking about.

Simply put, I'm not asking for arena/BG-focused players to have to start paying for all the same shit we do. I'm asking why the fuck there is this imbalance. Why is it that the pendulum has swung so far to this side? Now PVPers can totally focus on PVP and miss next-to-nothing from raiding for their PVP habits. If that is their main desire, they don't have to touch raiding. And even though that has cost us the help of a couple of our more rabid PVPers in raid zones...that's ok. But PVE players often must do arena to get certain items *cough*WEAPONS*cough* so they aren't gimped until their guild's progression and the RNG favors them. Meanwhile, if you raid, you're paying out the ass for it, and for non-guaranteed rewards. If you only PVP...gold must be a joke, honestly.

So why is it like this? When is Blizzard going to stop penalizing raiders for raiding while PVPers can get rich on dailies until their next set of gear, with its one meta and three other gems and a few enchants comes along...it's imbalanced and it's irritating. Hell, in my experience the exclusive PVPers are so goddamned cheap you only get a tea tray in about 1/4 of all AVs since it's been introduced. I hear that costs a reagent.


Now, I'm sure someone's going to come back at me with some "do you know how much I spent on X, Y, Z" -- but honestly, "spent" is the key word. I spent asstons of gold getting my character ready to raid with, but as I raid...those expenses keep coming and the original "set up fees" if you will are dwarfed and laughable. The other night I spent 62g on repairs alone, and I don't even consider that a very expensive night, just your average wipe night. On the other hand, on week 1 of S3 I ran about 60 arena matches. Know how much that cost me? About bubkis.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

4) A non-raiding PVPer rarely has to respec, while a raider who PVPs is most likely respeccing twice a week.

Bad argument there. A PvPer who doesn't raid is equal to a PvEer who doesn't PvP as far as respecs are concerned. And some classes can do both with one spec, some can't PvE very well at all in a PvP spec and obviously PvE specs suck for PvP for others.

[Suineg]

One of the reasons I quit WoW.

WoW is now a PvP game that happens to have PvE......

I am used to MMO's that are the other way around.

Don't expect a change.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

I considered that after the post, and it is somewhat true...I won't compare how often a PVPer is respeccing because someone on the team didn't log on and they have a gap to fill, vs. how often that may happen in the raiding environment. So discard that if you wish

[Bison]

What about the guild banks that have a stockpile of epic gems already? (if the guild needs to support raiding costs because of people needing to farm too much, sell the gems)

The epic drops that they can craft BoE items and sell for absurd amounts of money? (Belt of Blasting goes for 2.5k on my server, just as an example)

The times that guilds have run a buyer up through an instance so that they could "buy" items from a run? (Given this happened more in the BWL/AQ times, but it still happens on my server for guilds backflagging recruits or alts)

I don't make tables every AV because I don't see the need to spend 40s on some fucking scrub who is going to click the thing 25 times and then log out after this BG. Fuck that. I also don't buff groups with AB either. I give classes that can use it AI while waiting for the BG to start, but I fucking seldomly see people do the same. If I hear group buffs going off, or I see someone in my group give a group buff, fuck yeah I'll do the same. I'm just not going to do it for those knuckle draggers in greens with 4k HP and are going to get instabigged by the Warrior on the other side.

[Elvis]

new and exciting.

totally wont turn into a shitfest containing AV and paladin healing in arena.

[Horse]

I used to care about raiding and pvping. Too expensive, too much nonsense I don't want to do in order to do the things I want to do.

Potion farming, respeccing costs, trash + inessential boss clearing, BGs for arena gear, some pve for arena gear, some arena for pve gear.

The real issue is how WoW went from trying to meld all of these disparate games together (everyone was on the same page before the first BGs were added), to just separating them and tying them all together with bullshit farming.

New content that is feasible to do casually is needed, not taking old content and putting a random "kill the last boss" quest on it. I killed the last boss ad nauseum months ago when it was ideal to levelling and obtaining gear. Now it's just tedious.

ZA, much like ZG, is off of the proverbial mark unless your group is saturated in Arena gear. Straight kara gear? Not worth the repair bills.

Instead of consolidating servers, free transfers thin out multiple servers evenly. What sense is there in that?

Vashj and Kael were just horribly frustrating experiences for my now dissolved guild where the core people opted-out of the eternal revolving door to skip the annoyingly difficult encounters for the much easier encounters in BT/MH.
Those core people were the ones faced with the 100% attendance upkeep costs while we really weren't making any money in SSC/TK. They were further losing money to respeccing for Arenas.

To compound the OP issue - why isn't there any way of generating cash in arenas? Daily tournaments? Anything to increase the # of games people play so that queues aren't ridiculous? (odd coincidence that suddenly there's a log on to server queue and the arena queues shoot up to 10 minutes... wait, is the server busy or not... right when free transfers open to one of the ghost servers).

Either way, if you want to arena around your raid schedule you're looking at hundreds of gold a week, minimum.

Hooray for the WoW where 25 people show up to raid 100% of the time. Now lets start figuring out that there are people who might show up some of the times where the game is artificially slowed to an expensive, unrewarding crawl.

[daishinzo]

Originally Posted by Suineg

One of the reasons I quit WoW.

WoW is now a PvP game that happens to have PvE......

I am used to MMO's that are the other way around.

Don't expect a change.

elohel?

WoW is not and hasn't been a PVP game almost ever. PVP was thrown in to get some added players then slowly beaten and flayed as time passed.

I consider it a fair trade off since all the things pvp are gone. No world pvp aside from very few servers and most of it comes while leveling up. Towns regardless of faction/neutrality with more guards than every raid zone currently in the game combined spawn the second you walk in and start attacking something.

Aside from the fact I don't want to rant about how WoW pvp is dead aside from moderately competitive arenas depending on your ability and pro dice rolls. WoW is and never was a PVP game.

And to be honest costs are negligible in this game for both pve and pvp. Dailies which everyone and their mother does because of gemming and enchants and repairs take care of everything now.

You literally need to be retarded in some form to be poor in WoW with the gold that gets thrown at you and if you haven't figured out how to make it by now then whatever God you may or may not pray to, help you.

Also as an addendum most guilds who can actually progress in PVE are so effing loaded they pay for everything. Once you can sell loot be it kara, gruul/mag/tk/ssc/bt whatever. Most of the end game raid guilds on Illidan sit at a few hundred thousand gold easy and take care of all repairs and consumables for the guilds progression.

[Makata]

The heal -> spell damage change has made respeccing mostly a non-issue and you're just whining if you say otherwise. Many dailies don't even require you to deal damage and as long as you avoid the stupid ones that not even dps classes do (fel glands, scryer/aldor battle, etc) you can easily hit 10 and make your 120g without having to spec shadow/elemental/feral/ret. If you want to raid as holy and pvp as shadow that is your choice and no fault of blizzard's. Don't fault Blizzard because you chose to spend an extra 100g between raids. Accept the fact you're a god damned healer or reroll.

Your main beef should be with consumables. There's no reason they should even exist in the first place. Balance encounters without them and disallow them from being used in raid instances. The game would be alot better off with alchemy being worthless than people having to spend hundreds on consumables every raid. That money doesn't even leave the economy .. it just goes in the hands of the farmers who sell it right back to you.

[Dumar]

the game has kinda become a joke.

what do talents even mean anymore? you can just go change them (and ppl do) at the drop of a dime.. or a few gold. seriously, at this point, just give every class every single fucking talent and drop the charade. THAT would be some real fun.

the pvp in this game is a joke. i seriously can't stand it. everything is controlled. everything is separate. everything is so appropiated to its own little corner of the game that the game itself feels spread so thin. i mean, you have separate stats, gear, even talents for every little aforementioned corner. it's almost like game design for cheaters.

i wait, and i wait, and i long for a game where the designers have both the wisdom AND the foresight to make a BASIC set of rules that can reach far enough and be strong enough to power the world of a NEW mmog game that doesn't define itself by having a million different and separate corners.

how does this relate to this topic? it most def does because the way they have defined these corners, there will NEVER be a solution to this. you will always have similar gear but vastly different requirements for this gear in a game that has defined itself the way wow has.

there is no solution but to make a game with ONE SET OF RULES.

[darksensei]

You act like they're mutually exclusive problems, but the best PVP players on my server are in the top PVE guilds as well. The problem of respecs/repairs/consumables all compound greatly upon each other, and daily quests are just a half-ass solution to the problem. Is it fun having to do the same quests for an hour each day to be able to afford 1 respec + consumable? What if you want to PVP later that night after your raid? Gotta farm some primals first. I guarantee I spend over 2k a month with tedious bullshit like respecs, blacksmithing mastery, consumables, repairs. That's barely covered by the daily quests, and leaves me still having to farm for enchants. I can't raise any money whatsoever, so this far into TBC I still don't have an epic flyer.

[Kasi]

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

This is a fair question, and I'm wondering if people are irritated about this the way I am.

1) PVPers have to pay a tiny fraction of the repair bills, to the extent that it's not even a factor. With the PVP daily I'd be surprised if someone who did nothing but PVP and run that daily quest would ever run a gold deficit from repairs.

2) Arena gear has a fraction of the gem slots. I wouldn't categorize this as a "major" expense but it does add up, especially for a class like warriors or feral druids who mostly have to have two sets of gear.

3) Arena, which is the main source of epic gear for PVPers, which is equivalent to raid gear for its purpose (better in the PVP enviornment of course), requires little-to-no consumables, the "little" being so inconsequential as to be utterly laughable. Arena players can go for eight hours and not have to repair and not have to replenish stocks and not be thinking "this is going to take some farming over the weekend..."

4) A non-raiding PVPer rarely has to respec, while a raider who PVPs is most likely respeccing twice a week.

A raiding PVPer not only has to deal with gemming and enchanting their PVE sets, but the (four total?) gems on their PVP sets (and enchants for those), repairs for their raiding, consumables for their raiding...and if you do both, you know the contrast I'm talking about.

1. I agree with you. Repair bills are a joke that should be removed from the game. Or similar things should go into dying in Raid dungeons that exist in pvp, with reduced dying costs from dying in raids. Or balance them somehow. Someone raiding should spend the same on repair bills as someone pvp'ing.

2. I don't agree here. I think pvp'ers would want gem slots. It is pretty much a trueism that gear with gems is better than gear without gems given equal item level. Some pieces are itemized badly, but generally it is the good epics with sockets that have a nice spread of stats while something like Vest of Mounting Assault has too few stats and too focused. Loading up stats on gear wastes the item budget.

3. They have done a lot to make the raid game take less consumables. I pretty much rarely have to make my own flasks these days because of the Mark of the Illidaris we get in raid. Since I flask I don't use elixirs. This leaves food, weapon oil and of course mana pots. Those are all a lot more accessible than they used to be, but yeah it is still a fair chunk of money. I like the idea of consumables, just not the cost. I think food/oil is easy enough to get, but I think they should make mana pots even cheaper.

4. PVP set has actually 8 gems and a meta. In fact the 5 piece sets have the exact same gem slots as the Tiered sets they mimic. Add to that neck and bracers which have one socket each.

I don't like the respec costs either, whether it is for farming/raiding or pvp/raiding or just playing around. I wish there could be 2 specs that you could switch between for a minimal cost, but lets say changing one of those specs would cost like 100g. Plus add a decent cooldown on it so it couldn't be abused (like 1 hour cooldown after switching specs).

[RiskyChris]

Consumables need to just be removed from the game/raid game. That shit is crazy.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by daishinzo

elohel?

WoW is not and hasn't been a PVP game almost ever. PVP was thrown in to get some added players then slowly beaten and flayed as time passed.

I consider it a fair trade off since all the things pvp are gone. No world pvp aside from very few servers and most of it comes while leveling up. Towns regardless of faction/neutrality with more guards than every raid zone currently in the game combined spawn the second you walk in and start attacking something.

Aside from the fact I don't want to rant about how WoW pvp is dead aside from moderately competitive arenas depending on your ability and pro dice rolls. WoW is and never was a PVP game.

And to be honest costs are negligible in this game for both pve and pvp. Dailies which everyone and their mother does because of gemming and enchants and repairs take care of everything now.

You literally need to be retarded in some form to be poor in WoW with the gold that gets thrown at you and if you haven't figured out how to make it by now then whatever God you may or may not pray to, help you.

Also as an addendum most guilds who can actually progress in PVE are so effing loaded they pay for everything. Once you can sell loot be it kara, gruul/mag/tk/ssc/bt whatever. Most of the end game raid guilds on Illidan sit at a few hundred thousand gold easy and take care of all repairs and consumables for the guilds progression.

Chest thumping HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Most of the end game raid guilds is such an abysmally small percentage of the populous that you'll only end up disappointed as the game is watered down to cater to people who have "lives" and don't want to dedicate 100% of their free time to this shit.

"Once you can sell loot" is a joke and it is reserved for those guilds at the tip top. I recall the Naxx whining about losing money due to not having any sellables on top of the lewd consumable and repair costs, now apply that to every other fucking guild that progresses slower and has a guild flooding the market with the sellables that are months ahead of them. Thanks.

[Jenison]

Originally Posted by RiskyChris

Consumables need to just be removed from the game/raid game. That shit is crazy.

Consumables should not be part of the tuning process. Consumables should be the crutch for learning. Not required. But since the alchemy change, I pretty much agree with you. As I was the guild tank back in the day, I didnt mind being 1 of maybe 3 to have a flask on. Now I see raids where 3 dont have a flask on.