[WoW] PvP AFK measures are not enough.

[Schatze]

I tried arenas. I had high hopes. I just don't like them. To me, there's no meaning behind it. No drive to excel. Who gives a fuck if you lose to druid/warrior combo because they were a druid warrior combo and they're someone you'll never run into?

I can't find myself caring, I have no drive to memorize all the god damn spec/class combo crap.

I don't know. BGs back when I was clawing my way up to 14, at least it had a competitive spirit. At least it had rivalry. At least class compo wasn't as important, and (back before xserver, and back before horde collapsed), it was action and reaction, springing a new strat on the good horde premades, or have them spring a new strat on you.

I'm over romanticizing it, r14 grind sucked balls especially when to get anywhere above rank 11 you needed top 5 standing (at least on our server), before the standing req. nerfs. The queues sucked balls.

Maybe I'm just older. But BGs suck. Premades suck now, it's just constantly stomping nameless horde, it's boring. The team doesn't even need to be GOOD, because everyone else, even premades, play the BGs like they were brand new (I.E. no fucking clue how to win). No challenge. Arena just... Doesn't appeal.

I resubbed, now I'm gonna unsub. The old BS is gone, but so is the old magic. The game just does nothing for me now.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

Umm no, people who reroll to 1500 each week generally don't win a single game, so they end up in the 1350ish range come computation time. And if the team is in the 1400 range by happening to get lucky and win 1 or 2 games they reroll next round to save the gold. These players have virtually NO IMPACT on the 1600+ rating game since they will never ever be paired against them.

I do, however, agree with your sentiments about the whole grind. To me the biggest issue now is the total repetitiveness of the game. Why grind rep rewards, or tokens, or trying to find a dam tank/healer for instance blues, when you can get better via the BGs. So basically that is where I wind up playing, in the same old BG maps over and over. Boring me to tears now, tis why I am praying WAR has at least some decent game mechanics.

Well, follow your own logic: someone at 1400 doesn't play someone at 1600, so they're playing someone lower. If they lose, the other team wins. That team and their points are then the feeders for the 1600 team.

The points lost by losers simply trickle upwards. I just don't see anyone going 0-10 and sticking with it for more than 1-2 weeks before going 0-10 from 1500 again. Thing is, when they're 0-9 they're playing some other team that ends up 1-9 instead of 0-10. And so on.

So while they may not be paired against them, a team CAN be, say, 5-5 and worth 1500 points. You're also being a touch too idealistic in your faith of the matchup system. I play teams for big risk/reward all the time, at +/-100 point differences.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by The Ancient

Anyone who uses the arena solely to get "welfare epics" is the lowest common denominator and we really shouldn't give two shits what they do, except silently thank them for the subscription revenue and /ignore.

Problem is that the dungeons are tuned around these people. Tedium is considered when some tard can be in lower dam/heal per second, higher durability gear relatively easier.

The people doing kara -> ZA as a "real challenge" are in tons of PVP gear.

That gear is seen as the equalizer. This is where the term welfare epics comes from, not that they're getting "free epics lol" but that those epics actually arbitrarily put them at a place in PVE they would only be after X amount of PVE farming.


I'd love to see an arena system where everyone has the same gear, and a PVP BG system where you were not allowed to equip your PVP gear outside of those battlegrounds.

WSG gear where everyone gets crazy runspeed bonuses? Awesome!
AV gear where everyone gets knockback abilities? Whee!

Etc.

The largest issue with the arena system is that the awards are largely arbitrary. Winning is obtaining points - which happens win or lose. It really reminds me of professional sports, where playing the game is winning because you're getting paid - rather than actually winning being the only point where you get paid.

[The Ancient]

Originally Posted by Horse

That gear is seen as the equalizer. This is where the term welfare epics comes from, not that they're getting "free epics lol" but that those epics actually arbitrarily put them at a place in PVE they would only be after X amount of PVE farming.

No, the term "welfare epics" when used properly is meant to describe the obtaining epics through literally 0 exertion of skill. Honor Gains from losing battlegrounds (or worse afking), eventual purchase of arena gear just for showing up to 10 games a week.

If you are actually PvPing successfully for your gear, it's not "welfare epics" and only a fucking idiot would complain about your gear upgrades.

Also PvP gear is not that good for PvE. Someone said earlier that ZA loot was a joke compared to s2 and that person couldn't be more wrong. Your dps classes might be able to get their gear from PvP and step into ZA and do OK, but your tanks and healers will definately suffer, your progression still requires that most players PvE for Kara or Badge loot or purchase Crafted gear in order to move forward in PvE.

[Surlok TP]

Originally Posted by The Ancient

No, the term "welfare epics" when used properly is meant to describe the obtaining epics through literally 0 exertion of skill. Honor Gains from losing battlegrounds (or worse afking), eventual purchase of arena gear just for showing up to 10 games a week.

If you are actually PvPing successfully for your gear, it's not "welfare epics" and only a fucking idiot would complain about your gear upgrades.

Also PvP gear is not that good for PvE. Someone said earlier that ZA loot was a joke compared to s2 and that person couldn't be more wrong. Your dps classes might be able to get their gear from PvP and step into ZA and do OK, but your tanks and healers will definately suffer, your progression still requires that most players PvE for Kara or Badge loot or purchase Crafted gear in order to move forward in PvE.

DPS classes at least rogues,suffer from PVP gear as well,I cringe when I see rogues in full pvp gear standing outside instances or even getting them in groups, outside of the weapons of course, in full pvp gear I am at I think +110 hit which is fuck all,down from 310 with pve gear and since I am not a raider alot of that gear is blue , also lose a decent chunk of AP and gain nothing from PVP gear except crit and and a shit load of stamina.

The welfare epic thing doesn't hold much wieght for me in terms of arguing it's value in pve outside of again the weapons,these surely help, especially when you are a melee class.

[Nadiar]

Originally Posted by Surlok TP

DPS classes at least rogues,suffer from PVP gear as well,I cringe when I see rogues in full pvp gear standing outside instances or even getting them in groups, outside of the weapons of course, in full pvp gear I am at I think +110 hit which is fuck all,down from 310 with pve gear and since I am not a raider alot of that gear is blue , also lose a decent chunk of AP and gain nothing from PVP gear except crit and and a shit load of stamina.

The welfare epic thing doesn't hold much wieght for me in terms of arguing it's value in pve outside of again the weapons,these surely help, especially when you are a melee class.

Most of the PvP stuff for Feral's is better than most of the PvE stuff we have available. The catch is, Ferals kind of suck at PvP. I don't blame any Feral druid for doing the "lose 10 games" Arena tactic in order to get things like the second best Feral staff in the game (the top one being the Season 3 one, which requires at least some skill to pick up). I would consider this a failure of the PvE team to properly itemize though. Feral PvE items are balanced for some kind of crazy cat-bear that needs bear defensive abilities, and cat dps abilities at the same time.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

There's a high-rated Feral/Feral combo on Hyjal. Can't remember their names. Tribby and someone I think. But then that's 2v2, I've never met a feral/feral 2v2 team and I'm not sure how it pans out.

[Nadiar]

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

There's a high-rated Feral/Feral combo on Hyjal. Can't remember their names. Tribby and someone I think. But then that's 2v2, I've never met a feral/feral 2v2 team and I'm not sure how it pans out.

Unfortunately Armory is still screwed up. I don't doubt things like this are possible. 2 Feral Druids with 2 Piece T5 bonus would be pretty awesome in theory. I can't tell you if thats what they're doing or not, and I tend to disregard Raiding gear when I'm thinking about PvP balance.

You can also get by with Feral Druid/Rogue combo's by doing much the same technique with 2 piece T5. There is one in my Battlegroup, it makes me kind of jealous when I watch his video's. Sadly I can't remember his name right now.


2 piece T5: When you shift out of Bear Form, Dire Bear Form, or Cat Form, your next Regrowth spell takes 2 fewer sec. to cast.

Regrowth is a 2 second cast time spell, making it instant Regrowths when you shift forms. This basically gives a Feral Druid enough few Resto Druid tricks that it makes up for the complete lack of a healer.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Horse

Well, follow your own logic: someone at 1400 doesn't play someone at 1600, so they're playing someone lower. If they lose, the other team wins. That team and their points are then the feeders for the 1600 team.

The points lost by losers simply trickle upwards. I just don't see anyone going 0-10 and sticking with it for more than 1-2 weeks before going 0-10 from 1500 again. . .

Yeah but it is negligible, since those who get boosted up a bit are going to get beat down if they don't belong in the higher bracket. Plus they reset the ratings every few months anyway, washing out any inflation.

[Plorkyeran]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

Yeah but it is negligible, since those who get boosted up a bit are going to get beat down if they don't belong in the higher bracket. Plus they reset the ratings every few months anyway, washing out any inflation.

They get beat, and then the points continue to trickle up...

The inflation of ratings with the current system isn't a theory. It's pretty self-evident if you watch the ratings of the top teams as the season goes on -- teams that were 2700 after S2 didn't drop to under 2000 in S3 for a couple of weeks because they suddenly started sucking, then got better again.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Plorkyeran

They get beat, and then the points continue to trickle up...

The inflation of ratings with the current system isn't a theory. It's pretty self-evident if you watch the ratings of the top teams as the season goes on -- teams that were 2700 after S2 didn't drop to under 2000 in S3 for a couple of weeks because they suddenly started sucking, then got better again.

Did you you not understand that they wipe each new season every few months? And are you suggesting that People rerolling to 1500 meaningfully impacts the 2k+ rating brackets to any serious degree?

[FoghornDeadhorn]

He's saying that 2700 teams dropping to under 2000 was because they were inflated to 2700...really can't say I agree with that assessment but I do believe that the impact of inflation is present, and that the average rating is not 1500. However, I think S3 is much more competitive and that most teams below a certain rating will have a harder time moving up than they did in S2.

[Plorkyeran]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

Did you you not understand that they wipe each new season every few months? And are you suggesting that People rerolling to 1500 meaningfully impacts the 2k+ rating brackets to any serious degree?

Resetting everyone's ratings every season does not magically make the inflation not have happened. If arena seasons were a more reasonable length it wouldn't be very significant, but with how stupidly long they are there's a lot of time for points to move around.

Unless you're proposing that teams >1500 rating break up/go inactive at anywhere near the rate of those <1500 (and if you are, you're fucking retard), what do you think happen to all of those extra points? Teams with a "true rating" of 1600 beats some scrubs with a true rating of 1300, but get points for beating a 1500 team, and shoot up to 1700. They then lose to teams actually good enough to be 1700, then drop down and beat up some scrubs again. Those 1700 teams get inflated to 1800, lose to real 1800 teams, repeat. The fact that better teams will sometimes lose to worse teams means that the point flow is not entirly upward, but it's impossible for it to be downward for a sustained period of time.

The smurfing in the second half of the season is interesting in that it inflates the number of highly rated teams, but deflates the average rating of the teams under where the smurfs stop.

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

He's saying that 2700 teams dropping to under 2000 was because they were inflated to 2700...really can't say I agree with that assessment but I do believe that the impact of inflation is present, and that the average rating is not 1500.

I'm not saying that without inflation they'd be stuck under 2000 -- it'd still probably be more like 2400 by the end of the season. Taking a while to get over 2000 is mostly due to that you really can't outpace your battlegroup or you hit the point where there's only two teams it'll even pair you against and both of them give 1 point for a win. However, without inflation you'd eventually hit the point where the people under you hit thier true rating and stop going up.

[Maxxius]

Yeah but as I keep saying, the resetting of the seasons negate any serious impact. And no way people are inflated to 2700 in that short a time because under 1500s are rerolling. Actually I submit the average rating is way below 1500 especially if you do an arena search. Tho your last sentence (to Foghorn) may have validity because of the closing of the gear discrepnancy gap.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Plorkyeran

? Teams with a "true rating" of 1600 beats some scrubs with a true rating of 1300, but get points for beating a 1500 team, and shoot up to 1700. They then lose to teams actually good enough to be 1700, then drop down and beat up some scrubs again. Those 1700 teams get inflated to 1800, lose to real 1800 teams, repeat. The fact that better teams will sometimes lose to worse teams means that the point flow is not entirly upward, but it's impossible for it to be downward for a sustained period of time.

.

Seriously Piorkyeran that kind of inflation post 1700 over the course of 3-4 months is just so friggin negligible because of rerolling 1500s, and to suggest otherwise is plumb silly. People in the upper brackets are there for reasons OTHER THAN inflation.