SOE's Next Step?

[Ssinurn]

Originally Posted by Pinski

No, it's not limited by the engine at all. EQ2 end-game raiding is limited by the designers. If you're going to tell me that it's the engine's fault that end-game mobs all use the same basic design, then you are thoroughly mistaken and need to look at the real problem with EQ2 end-game. I'll give you a hint, his name is Roger.

LOL that is true also, but I wonder if they are able to churn out unique boss models, with unique animations (complete with uniques spells/particle effects), to link with the scripting?

Like tentacles coming from the ground as with C'Thun, or some giant blocking animation or other animation alerting you that a certain AE is about to happen, but if you click this lever or hit the creature with some spell, that the AE, and it's animation is stopped?

(and I don't mean like the statue thingy in CT with Venekor, I mean more animated than that).

I'm not sure that is technically or financially (art team/dev time) feasible in EQ2. I do agree that we should have had more scripts like Act of War, and less like giant "insert PC here" with a retarded looking hat on, and 15 AE's that are copied from the last expansions encounters just with slightly different numbers.

Case en point, FFXI which does have more scripted/unique encounters than endgame EQ2 has an expansion with a release date two weeks after RoK's published release date.

I can guarantee that it will probably have more content, be more complete and less buggy than EQ2's venture.

[Narale]

I know it seems like SOE is in a position to turn their shit around with the community. I'm not sure why this is. Most of it likely has to do with EQ2 getting a few competent devs. It also seems like a lot of people almost pity SOE for having to deal with Vanguard (which allowed everyone to see that you can fail worse than EQ2).

On the whole though, SOE still doesn't have that many good people. Being born out of Verant it always seemed like SOE got the stiffer devs from EQ, but with Vanguard collapsing and all of its devs (Nino excluded) being shamed from here to high heaven the days of EQ nostalgia are quickly vanishing. I don't consider that IP fruitful anymore, and certainly not in the hands of SOE.

They really only have a handful of devs that anyone likes, Hartsman and Nino leading the way. But really, are these guy the kind of artistic masterminds that could produce a game that would prove to be a Big Step for SOE instead of constant poop treading? I don't think so. Honestly, I'm not trying to hate, but the likelihood of SOE ever creating games on the level of the tops dogs in the gaming industry (Blizz, Bethesda, Bungie, Bioware, Epic, etc) is just almost laughable. Expect mediocrity.

[cyanbane]

Originally Posted by Lourdin

Neal Stephenson wrote both Cryptonomicon and SnowCrash.

Your right, in my mind I merged Cryptonomicon and Neuromancer for some reason. i was thinking Neuromancer, but gave the story of Crypto and the author or Neuro. Principal still holds though.

[Ssinurn]

Originally Posted by Narale

They really only have a handful of devs that anyone likes, Hartsman and Nino leading the way. But really, are these guy the kind of artistic masterminds that could produce a game that would prove to be a Big Step for SOE instead of constant poop treading?

There are quite a few not as publically vocal devs that most EQ2 players like - Silverfrost, Aerilak (sp?), Saavedra to name a few.

[Braen]

Originally Posted by Pinski

No, it's not limited by the engine at all. EQ2 end-game raiding is limited by the designers. If you're going to tell me that it's the engine's fault that end-game mobs all use the same basic design, then you are thoroughly mistaken and need to look at the real problem with EQ2 end-game. I'll give you a hint, his name is Roger.

No. I am talking about the limited scripting that EQ2 can do. It is because of the tools for the engine. Art assets aside, I would take the same mob models if everytime I went in to an end-game zone, I would be surpirsed with the amount oof thought that went into the encounter. If an encounter looked anything like a WoW instance. Uldaman is a good example, nothing in EQ2 reminds me of how thought out and scripted the event/encounters in that non end-game instance in WoW.

Scripting and dynamic encounters are a HUGE draw and a great reason to see the end game.

[Nilden]

It's actually amazing when you think about the resources, experience, and people behind all those SOE games and how much they all suck. Seriously it's not about the WoW clone it's about some bloody standards boys and girls. Don't release unpolished bug ridden crap that feels like something some 6 year olds with crayons worked on.

This just in SOE making a quality game and pigs can fly!!

If WoW did one thing for the MMO market it's up the standards across the board.

[Narale]

Originally Posted by Ssinurn

There are quite a few not as publically vocal devs that most EQ2 players like - Silverfrost, Aerilak (sp?), Saavedra to name a few.

Yea, I'm aware that there are a handful of good devs in EQ2 alone. I just threw out Hartsmen and Nino since they are really the closest thing to rock star devs SOE has.

I don't mean that SOE cannot make a good next step, I just wouldn't invest much other than mild interest in their next iteration of games. If the next games are pretty good, then yay. If they feel fresh, then even better. But even if they learn from their past mistakes SOE still has a few good leaps and bounds to jump to create a truly great game. Those leaps and bounds are in a completely opposite direction from their current catalogue as well.

EQ and it's IP just seem tired and stretched beyond reason. I hope there isn't an EQ3.

[Laerazi]

Originally Posted by Nilden

It's actually amazing when you think about the resources, experience, and people behind all those SOE games and how much they all suck. Seriously it's not about the WoW clone it's about some bloody standards boys and girls. Don't release unpolished bug ridden crap that feels like something some 6 year olds with crayons worked on.

This just in SOE making a quality game and pigs can fly!!

If WoW did one thing for the MMO market it's up the standards across the board.

I don't think it's a lack of skill. I think it's more that SOE was pushing their developer's to produce content way too fast, not allowing for proper planning, execution, and polish. Now that they've doubled both EQ1 and EQ2's expansion cycle length, they are showing that, if given the time, they can produce something good.

I'm sure WoW expansions would suck, too, if it had a 6 month production time (that, or it would be very small).

I think SOE managers finally started to realize that pushing out rushed content, even though it might have gotten money to SOE faster, resulted in pissed off customers, reduced subscriptions, and overall gave a bad impression of SOE's products.

[Serpens]

Originally Posted by Laerazi

The main things to take from WoW are to make your game quality, accessible, fun, and polished. Not exactly brain surgery.

I would argue fun is close to brain surgery. Fun is the undefinable "it" that makes a great game.

[Ravensign]

I think SoE hasn't ever even tried to do it right. I bet if they slowed down and took their time they could do it. They have been (pre Wow at least) so arrogant and with their heads up their but it didn't ever even OCCUR to them to do it right. They released EQ2 early as a POS to compete with WoW... that worked great.

They have never made a game with a long, public beta cycle for starters - a Beta cycle where it doesn't end until its perfect and everyone knows it. A Beta thats playable as a day in day out game before its released. I hate to say it but a beta like WoW.

EQ2, SWG, VG (which they bought, but still) all had awful betas filled with people screaming not to release and short open segments of beta.

The secret is to not clone WoW the game, but clone Wow the development process and design philosophy.

[Nilden]

Originally Posted by Ravensign

They have never made a game with a long, public beta cycle for starters - a Beta cycle where it doesn't end until its perfect and everyone knows it. A Beta thats playable as a day in day out game before its released. I hate to say it but a beta like WoW.

Every MMO should have a one month open beta. Iron all the shit out get it polished and release a finished game. There is no miracle patch there's no omg it's just beta fix. This is the game you will be playing on release you just get to play it early to see how kick ass it is. Of course maybe it sucks balls and they want box sales but they are just shooting themselves in the foot by not releasing a quality running product and cashing in on the subs.

[Ssinurn]

Totally agreed Ravensign. I have also thought about "What if..." not just with SOE, but any large MMO company at this point actually took the whole "it will be released when it's ready" philosophy to heart. Not just lipservice, but actually delaying a project 6 months like Blizzard has done many times to end up with really good product.

I want my MMO selection to be as varied as the "good" TV selections we have been blessed with as of late.

Oh and yea, having been a member of most of the larger betas - if your forums are full of DO NOT RELEASE posts instead of class v class debates and what not, do not ship.

[Gecko]

Originally Posted by Ravensign

I think SoE hasn't ever even tried to do it right. I bet if they slowed down and took their time they could do it. They have been (pre Wow at least) so arrogant and with their heads up their but it didn't ever even OCCUR to them to do it right. They released EQ2 early as a POS to compete with WoW... that worked great..

So true.

Plus, to add insult to injury, they had all those adventure packs and expansions the first two years rushed out the gate, in a greedy attempt to cash in more, seemingly forgetting this was a half finished pay to play game to begin with.

SOE were in such a rush to push content out, they never stopped to ask if it was good or needed content, and if their business model was justified, or the reason they were getting creamed by WOW. The only thing that seemed to have given their management a clue was checking out their competitions subscription numbers.

The new expansion is nice, but unless they rework the game so their terrible zones such as Commonlands, Antonica, Rivervale, etc are retooled few people will make it past level 20, the end of the new race starting area and word of mouth will tell people to steer clear of ROK since it's too little in regards to fixing the shoddiness of EQ2.

The problem with EQ2 is Smed is a suit, and the game seems to still be run by bean counters. If it were run by gamers with a clue, they'd rework the dozens of terribly designed zones and overhaul the game to make it a seamless fun world instead of a haphazard collection of disheveled craptastic zones that make no sense and are terrible to play in. This isn't even going into the endgame encounters and leveling issues.

[Gnome Eater]

I think SoE hasn't ever even tried to do it right. I bet if they slowed down and took their time they could do it. They have been (pre Wow at least) so arrogant and with their heads up their but it didn't ever even OCCUR to them to do it right. They released EQ2 early as a POS to compete with WoW... that worked great..

The last EQ2 expansion was amazing, and apparently they are slowing down the rate of EQ1 expansions to make them more polished and interesting, which is just as well since all EQ expansions recently were 4 or 5 zones + a raid instance that is one of the zones but instanced with raid npcs.

[Jaytan]

Originally Posted by cyanbane

I think it is pretty safe to assume SOE would never ever see the Shadowrun IP because of the competing consoles (360 - MS - Shadowrun) Vs (SOE - PS3), but the more I think about it, Shadowrun rocked and was a great world, but to be honest it was pretty cyberpunk generic. Off hand I can't really remember any elements to it that made it distinct from any other cyberpunk world anyone could dreamup minus a few characters. It was different that the "future" half of cryptonoicon (gibson) and Snowcrash (Stephenson) but in essence the worlds they took part in were pretty similar (2 words - one real one virtual). To the point that I don't really know if you would need the shadowrun IP for a good cyberpunk MMO, you just need a good cyberpunk IP period (created if you wanted). What you need is badass artists and the balls to go off the deep end and make a really really dark and sinister future world that isn't pretty colors (wow) or trying to cram something into a previous IP (EQ2) and actually works (VG).

Could SOE come up with a good Cyberpunk IP? I honestly don't know.

The shadowrun IP is owned by WizKids who are already working with SoE - the game developed for the 360 is a relic of the effectively no longer active corporation, FASA - FASA Interactive was spawned from them and developed Xbox the game in question. Oh and why I am being pedantic, SoE is part of Sony Pictures, not Sony Computer Entertainment, so they could probably do a 360 game if they had reason to believe it beneficial.