SOE's Next Step?

[Draegan]

Can we stop with the Defensive Target = Innovation? It's just an improved game mechanic.

[Braen]

Technically EQ2 had a defensive target.

[Bongk]

Anarchy Online had it 6 years ago

[Venjenz]

Originally Posted by Bongk

Anarchy Online had it 6 years ago

Anarchy Online had a lot of stuff 6 years ago that people think is innovative. and part of why WoW has sold so many boxes is that they incorporated a lot of those AO features into their game, and left out all the junk in AO that sucked, most notably, absurdly poor server performance that continues to this day.

Flowing capes? AO had them first.
Personal air travel? AO.
Every class can solo and choose difficulty of instanced content? AO.

Not to say these were genius moves on FunCom's part, because they learned a lot from the griping on the Verant boards about EQ1. But they did have a lot of firsts that Blizzard polished to a high gloss. But for every great thing FC did with AO, they had two other things that blew, amking their game a niche game at its peak.

That's why WoW kicks down a few gazillion $$$ per minute. They put in a lot of fun, took out a lot of suck, and polished it all nice and shiny. And because of WoW, all subsequent fantasy themed MMOs will be playing catch up.

Someone already mentioned it, but the next great step in the MMO market will be a well done cyberpunk game. If someone like SOE would simply pay William Gibson and some of his fave artists the consulting fees, a great fucking game is right there, waiting to be written. But instead of putting the technology cart before the lore/mythos/design horse, get the game fleshed out on paper as far down as possible, then go for a 3 year dev, 9-12 months testing cycle.

The Matrix Online took the wrong cyberpunk IP with the wrong writers and they tried too hard to cash in on the popularity of the movies with a rushed and sloppy product that was limited from day 1. Get Gibson and guys like Rucker, Williams and a few other badass cyberpunk writers on board, and it would be hellah great.

Anarchy Online already showed the way with implants and the Fixer grid, all someone needs to do is take it down Gibson Ave with really good art and Blizzard levels of polish and testing.

[Ssinurn]

+1 for giving props to AO. Don't forget things like instancing, missions, in game "web" support or channels. I'm sure there were other MMOs that did some of what they did, but not as well. I'd for sure do an AO with improved graphics. But no AO2 please, just fix the graphics and do engine improvements.

As far as EQ3 is concerned. No thx. I know there were many things messed up with EQ2s launch, but I'd only support this if they found a way to allow people to play in EQ + EQ2 + (new upgraded) EQ3 content, put all the teams together and actually put some real $$ toward developing this game. As people tire of old areas revamp as needed and concentrate on the newer parts of the game.

I don't know how you would do it, but let people play and keep some progression in all three "universes". Put money and development hours toward the most popular features, figure a way to do user generated content and done.

I agree the DC MMO is their next shot at a big IP. If that flops - thumbs down to them somehow getting another big IP like Shadowrun. I think they have had enough chances with large IPs that are not their own.

[Genjiro]

My favorite MMO feature was probably from CoH. The ability to sidekick up to play with higher level friends or to mentor down to lower levels made it so everyone could always play with their friends. So many fucking people dont play MMO's with friends due to giant barriers between play times and rl responsibilities.The casual players give up trying to keep up, and eventually just quit feeling dejected. Every game needs some sort of system like this.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Draegan

Can we stop with the Defensive Target = Innovation? It's just an improved game mechanic.

No. Because it is an improved game mechanic = an innovation. Similiarly we will not stop suggesting that the innovative FFXI subjob system (also an improved game mechanic) be added to some future game.

[cyanbane]

I think it is pretty safe to assume SOE would never ever see the Shadowrun IP because of the competing consoles (360 - MS - Shadowrun) Vs (SOE - PS3), but the more I think about it, Shadowrun rocked and was a great world, but to be honest it was pretty cyberpunk generic. Off hand I can't really remember any elements to it that made it distinct from any other cyberpunk world anyone could dreamup minus a few characters. It was different that the "future" half of cryptonoicon (gibson) and Snowcrash (Stephenson) but in essence the worlds they took part in were pretty similar (2 words - one real one virtual). To the point that I don't really know if you would need the shadowrun IP for a good cyberpunk MMO, you just need a good cyberpunk IP period (created if you wanted). What you need is badass artists and the balls to go off the deep end and make a really really dark and sinister future world that isn't pretty colors (wow) or trying to cram something into a previous IP (EQ2) and actually works (VG).

Could SOE come up with a good Cyberpunk IP? I honestly don't know.

[Lourdin]

Originally Posted by mek

EQ3 is the worst idea possible at this point. If SOE sticks the Everquest brand on anything ever again, they're capping their subs at retention-from-previous-game levels. Nobody is interested in that IP anymore.

Wow, I couldn't agree with this more. The IP of EQ is still going strong; I would think that even the people who dislike the EQ games on this board would have to admit the IP of the EQ's has some substantial weight to it.

[Draegan]

Originally Posted by tad10

No. Because it is an improved game mechanic = an innovation. Similiarly we will not stop suggesting that the innovative FFXI subjob system (also an improved game mechanic) be added to some future game.

I never brought up FFXI and I think you're fishing for another dumb argument.

As far as the Def.Target, it's semantics. I just think the word innovative is too grand of a term for that feature. It's a helpful feature. But people won't flock to a game because of a defensive target which is what innovation does for you.

[Lourdin]

Originally Posted by cyanbane

It was different that the "future" half of cryptonoicon (gibson) and Snowcrash (Stephenson) but in essence the worlds they took part in were pretty similar (2 words - one real one virtual).

Neal Stephenson wrote both Cryptonomicon and SnowCrash.

[Venjenz]

Originally Posted by cyanbane

I think it is pretty safe to assume SOE would never ever see the Shadowrun IP because of the competing consoles (360 - MS - Shadowrun) Vs (SOE - PS3), but the more I think about it, Shadowrun rocked and was a great world, but to be honest it was pretty cyberpunk generic. Off hand I can't really remember any elements to it that made it distinct from any other cyberpunk world anyone could dreamup minus a few characters. It was different that the "future" half of cryptonoicon (gibson) and Snowcrash (Stephenson) but in essence the worlds they took part in were pretty similar (2 words - one real one virtual). To the point that I don't really know if you would need the shadowrun IP for a good cyberpunk MMO, you just need a good cyberpunk IP period (created if you wanted). What you need is badass artists and the balls to go off the deep end and make a really really dark and sinister future world that isn't pretty colors (wow) or trying to cram something into a previous IP (EQ2) and actually works (VG).

Could SOE come up with a good Cyberpunk IP? I honestly don't know.

This is my point about actually paying the right idea people for their time. If a game company, take your pick, got together with William Gibson and just had him help flesh out how the game world should look and the lore behind it, I think you could start with a lot of creative decisions already headed in the right direction. The guy invented the term FFS, and his novels are far from some bright, happy future. They're dark, gritty and with the Talsorian pen &paper rules and items already done with Gibson's consulting, you already have a lot of design taken care of. Then go out and find the right artists to make the design real, and keep folks like Gibson in the loop. Tap guys like Byrne and Mothersbaugh for sound and music.

I am thinking of it like the process that made the first Alien movie as unique and badass as it was. They tapped HR Giger early on to design the look and feel of everything, not just the alien. And in the end, it's his imagery that helps make that IP so visually unsettling yet cool.

And anymore, the big ticket video game is like a movie. If it is poorly written, poorly directed, and poorly acted, all the cool CGI and explosions and frontal nudity of Hot Chick du jour won't make it anything more than straight to video, late night Cinemax junk. One fo the reasons WoW works so well is because the people who originally conjured up their fantasy setting for the RTS games were right there translating that to the MMO milieu. Everyone else, even SOE, is just building more Tolkien derivation. That's fine, but it's worn out. So go in a new direction, but make sure you have the best guide helping you get there.

It could be a great move. Sadly, such ideas are like wishing for Lucas to give a good director and writer permission to license his Star Wars IP. We can all wish for it, but in the end, we'll get garbage.

[Braen]

Originally Posted by Lourdin

Wow, I couldn't agree with this more. The IP of EQ is still going strong; I would think that even the people who dislike the EQ games on this board would have to admit the IP of the EQ's has some substantial weight to it.

Problem is... Both games are limited by their engines, especially EQ2. Maybe not an EQ3, but a massive engine overhaul would do tons to help it.

The difference between WoW end game raiding and EQ2 end-game raiding is HUGE.

[Pinski]

Originally Posted by Braen

Problem is... Both games are limited by their engines, especially EQ2. Maybe not an EQ3, but a massive engine overhaul would do tons to help it.

The difference between WoW end game raiding and EQ2 end-game raiding is HUGE.

No, it's not limited by the engine at all. EQ2 end-game raiding is limited by the designers. If you're going to tell me that it's the engine's fault that end-game mobs all use the same basic design, then you are thoroughly mistaken and need to look at the real problem with EQ2 end-game. I'll give you a hint, his name is Roger.

[Genjiro]

Roger Uzun I assume? If so, this is the guy Scott originally set us up with back at launch when they asked us to test the first gameplay changes. That guy is honestly the biggest fucking dope I have ever met. It was obvious after a couple nights with that guy, that his knowledge of EQ2 extended to mostly 1s and 0s, and he had the creativity of drywall.

He argued up and down with me that content was hard enough. So, I took our usual 16-18 and shitstomped the frogluk expansion zone in front of his eyes. He then accused us of exploiting saying we had way too many hp. I was like....hey asshole, if you ever opened up your forums one fucking time you might see a bunch of posts by dirges complaining how troubs were overpowered due to being able to stack every stamina song. Needless to say, he had no fucking clue, even though there were several threads on this same subject for months.

What was even better was he was so incompetent, he copied our characters over from a 4 month old save point when we had tons of outdated gear, and being too lazy to do it right, he just gave us generic stuff that had no resemblence to gear high level players used. It was quality testing =/. He eventually got tired of being there, and just up and left out of the blue after about an hour the first night. So, we test his zone, find a major bug where the lower level encounter that unlocked the rest of the zone got bugged from a bug in CT that had been in there since launch, that being there was no collision detection. Mobs got stuck under the world, breaking the entire zone. I send douche bag a 3 page long email detailing several ways he could have fixed it, and not a word back. That was our last time testing, and lo and behold when the zone went live a full month later, that same bug was in that he was too goddamn lazy to ever fix and every top guild got stonewalled on it and locked out due to that lovely bug. I cant believe that guy is still holding a job there.