Vanguard GU3 Update Video

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Duppin

Just remember:

Down the highway, not across the street.

Well he is right. No surprise to see where Elidroth is now employed though.

[Duppin]

I don't think anyone needed him to explain that getting laid off and fired both mean you don't get a paycheck anymore.

But the reasons ARE different, and it's stupid to be so emo about it anyway if it's not your job that got lost.

[Elidroth Renato]

Originally Posted by gnomad

When the bills come due there is no difference and you know that. Talk about a tool for the "man". People like you sicken me.

In case you weren't paying attention.. I was one of the people Cylus was referring to.. I got laid off from Sigil and am now working at SOE. I know full well what happens when the bills come and there is no income.

My point.. was that Cylus' post made it sound (though I doubt that was his intent) like people who were fired for poor performance were now working at SOE, the same company as the rest of the Sigil devs.

[Bellstian]

Sad part is that SOE really didn't support the game as much as they have EQ2. With the right resources Vanguard could be a waaaay better game than EQ2. But they did save the game from going under I guess, and I can understand not pumping as much money into a game you didn't develop from the ground up as opposed to one you have. But it's still a shame, if VG had another 8-12 months in beta it would have been a relative success...and the 200,000 people that bought the game at launch would still be subscribing...instead of the 20-50,000 that are now.

[Gecko]

Originally Posted by Locithon

Sad part is that SOE really didn't support the game as much as they have EQ2. With the right resources Vanguard could be a waaaay better game than EQ2. But they did save the game from going under I guess, and I can understand not pumping as much money into a game you didn't develop from the ground up as opposed to one you have. But it's still a shame, if VG had another 8-12 months in beta it would have been a relative success...and the 200,000 people that bought the game at launch would still be subscribing...instead of the 20-50,000 that are now.

With the right resources, Hello Kitty Online could be better than EQ2.

Sigil had 40 million it spent in dev costs or so, and quite a lot of time. There's pretty much no way you can blame SOE for the mess that is Vanguard. All they did was offer Sigil a cheap way to get their product to the masses so it could sink or swim.

You also certainly can't expect them to pony up big bucks for a product Sigil was also still holding on to until the end.

Vanguard needed years more work from the point it was released. There is a reason MS let go of the project, and there's a reason it sank so far after release. Even today it's still a pretty good distance to being a polished strong MMO, even.

There's no doubting Sigil had some talented people, but they suffered from nepotism and piss poor management, which shows in their half baked product and the soap opera that was their workspace.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by gnomad

When the bills come due there is no difference and you know that. Talk about a tool for the "man". People like you sicken me.

When you're interviewing for another job there is a huge difference and you should know that. People like you dumb down the gene pool.

[The Hiram Key]

Originally Posted by tad10

When you're interviewing for another job there is a huge difference and you should know that. People like you dumb down the gene pool.

There is something deliciously amusing about Tad10 commenting on the dumbing down of the gene pool.

Ha~

[CylusSoulreaver]

Originally Posted by Gecko

Sigil had 40 million it spent in dev costs or so, and quite a lot of time.

Don't quote that amount of money. The CURRENT game, design-wise, never saw ANY of that money; we watched SoE buy us and, honestly, we were happy that they did because it meant that we still had a job.

Quote the millions all you want; that money was pissed away well before the rest of us actually worked on the game. Hell, Sigil was so poor, we could not even have a "launch" party at the time that we launched.

Ask someone else where that money went, not me ;p

[kcxiv]

Originally Posted by CylusSoulreaver

Don't quote that amount of money. The CURRENT game, design-wise, never saw ANY of that money; we watched SoE buy us and, honestly, we were happy that they did because it meant that we still had a job.

Quote the millions all you want; that money was pissed away well before the rest of us actually worked on the game. Hell, Sigil was so poor, we could not even have a "launch" party at the time that we launched.

Ask someone else where that money went, not me ;p

Kind of figured the current game had nowhere near that amount of money. I think i remember you all saying that the game was basically made in a year.

I wonder if Brad parties. I know he's supposed to be a Christian, but with all that money he had funded cant help but wonder where it actually went. lol

[Kendrick]

Easy math...the vast bulk of it went into employee salaries and benefits. Benefits were good, but not exceptional, and the salary ranges were industry standard for the most part. But there was a lot of employees over a long period of time, and that adds up.

Also note that what a person is paid versus what a person COSTS the company are two very different figures. The burdened costs of FICA, Comp, 401k, subsidized insurance premiums, admin costs, vacation pay, etc, can amount to as much as 50% on top of the base salary.

The lease costs of the "fancy" office building wasn't that expensive in the grand scheme of things, with the criteria of staying in North County and housing 100+ employees (and their cars), it was actually something of a bargain in the booming 2004 real estate market. Our first real office, from May 2002 to December 2004 was extremely cheap, considering the size, $7k/month.

Equipment costs were also reasonable, (plus we got a lot of free stuff from MSFT, like used Asheron's Call 2 servers) and when I left we were still using a $150/month T1.

Donuts on Friday and free soda and coffee don't add a whole lot to the bottom line either.

Keep in mind the cost of Vanguard up to launch wasn't as high as $40 million, either.

[Ssinurn]

Originally Posted by Kendrick

Donuts on Friday and free soda and coffee don't add a whole lot to the bottom line either.

Keep in mind the cost of Vanguard up to launch wasn't as high as $40 million, either.

Agreed on the other things you listed, but I have to say I work at a bank in the back office in IT and we don't get free soda or donuts. We also barely have funds to have a holiday party.

Part of being frugal as a company means you get more on the bottom line.

[Kodylan]

Originally Posted by gnomad

When the bills come due there is no difference and you know that. Talk about a tool for the "man". People like you sicken me.

This is a really stupid comment. It makes a world of difference between being laid off and being fired. One of them affects your chances of getting a better job in the future. The only thing they even remotely have in common is that you're left without income in the interim.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by The Hiram Key

There is something deliciously amusing about Tad10 commenting on the dumbing down of the gene pool.

Ha~

Player housing. Etc.

[Gecko]

Originally Posted by CylusSoulreaver

Don't quote that amount of money. The CURRENT game, design-wise, never saw ANY of that money; we watched SoE buy us and, honestly, we were happy that they did because it meant that we still had a job.

Quote the millions all you want; that money was pissed away well before the rest of us actually worked on the game. Hell, Sigil was so poor, we could not even have a "launch" party at the time that we launched.

Ask someone else where that money went, not me ;p

I have no idea how the money was used, but that was the amount Sigil spent over the course of Vanguard's life. The people who do know are not talking.

If I had to ration I guess, a big chunk probably was used licensing the Unreal engine, setting up Shop in California, versus a cheaper area, and piss poor early executive decisions wasting huge amounts of cash on things that were cut long term from the game. I'm sure the Microsoft split story also would shed some light on Sigil's inept leadership and spending habits.

I'm sure you and the other good people who were part of Sigil, who put your trust in it's management would want to know more than me where the venture cash all went to, and why things turned out the way they did.

Sigil makes me think of Big Idea. The people who created Veggie Tales. If you want an interesting comparative read check this out:

» What Happened to Big Idea? Part 1

They created a good TV series Veggie Tales and had a nice enterprise with some partners making decent cash, but decided to do their own thing and go big, and make a movie, Jonah. They hired some business people who advised them to spend and spend and go lavish. They ended up taking a nice, good product that made them decent revenue and tried to do too much with it by dumping so much cash into their Jonah movie, that it killed their nice company.

Mcquaid likewise seems to have taken his limited EQ success and tried to do too much and be something he wasn't.

[Twobit Whore]

The term you are looking for is Second System Effect.