Hellgate London Beta - Sept 17

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Sharmai

do you see what I mean by complete idiots?

I'm starting to... but carry on.

[Hachima]

I don't care if it was 34% reduction, 63.346346% reduction or 2% reduction that got you to 20 points of damage per hit (in this case it was 80% reduction) The % reduction that got you to where you are is irrelevant. The fact is something got you to 20. Then another reduction took you to 10 points of reduction. This means the last reduction was a 50% reduction.

[Sharmai]

Rehlor and Twobit I understand what your saying and I know their math isn't incorrect in terms of math but it is incorrect in terms of how it is being portrayed.. I.E.

The reason for all this is to find out which is more effective at level 50. AoR heals based on your maximum health. I believe it heals 20-25% of your maximum health per minute which means with a 4000 HP guardian is getting around 800 health back a minute.

If a 4000 HP guardian with base 80% DR is taking 100 DPS then who will survive longer.
AoR guardian healing 20-25% of his hp per minute or a AoD guardian with a 15% increase in DR....

[Rehlor]

Originally Posted by Sharmai

If a 4000 HP guardian with base 80% DR is taking 100 DPS then who will survive longer.
AoR guardian healing 20-25% of his hp per minute or a AoD guardian with a 15% increase in DR....

15% increase in DR? This becomes a serious stacking question right out of the gate. If it's 15% effective DR, then his actual DR increase is 3% (Guard #1). If the increase is 15% to his actual, base DR, then the effective increase is 75% and is spec-fucking-tacular (Guard #2).

Anyways, given those numbers *and* ignoring health potions/burst damage:

DR Guard #1 is taking: 17 DPS
DR Guard #2 is taking: 5 DPS
Aor Guard is taking: 7 - 4 DPS (Depending on if it's 20 or 25%)


Bumping this up to 1000 DPS (to display some key differences in scaling):

DR Guard #1 is taking: 170 DPS
DR Guard #2 is taking: 50 DPS
AoR guard is taking: 187-184 DPS

Given that I don't actually know much about the game except that 100DPS seems very low for the 4k hp range considering the damage L17'ish mobs already hit for sometimes, and that the game favors burst damage, I think the clear winner is the DR guard. Either one.

But I never actually looked up the skills in question or played a Guard, so.../shrug

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Sharmai

why would there be less armor? Do we know for sure that gear with + stats on it has 20% less armor on it or something? Is there a reason why an AoR guardian cannot switch to AoD if and when needed?

You're getting +stats on your gear instead of +armor, no? Given the idea that there's an "item budget" I would just think its always better to stack +defense/armor % or flat as a stat rather than +allstats.

Of course that is obscured when +allstats allows you to equip things you'd otherwise not be able to.


Besides, real men run around with stacked +luck

[Sharmai]

Oh sorry my poor wording is just as bad as them.... *sigh*

Guardian 1: 80% base armor, 4000 HP 100 DPS received

Guardian 2: 95% base armor (with AoD active.) 4000 HP 100 DPS received

Guardian 3: 80% base armor, 4000 Hp, regen 20-25% HP per MIN, 100 DPS received

Assumption 1: 100DPS is being received by each guardian. AoR and AoD are assumed to be maxed at all guardians are assumed to have at least 8 or more mobs in their aura until they die.
Assumption 2: All guardians have the same max health. In reality the AoR guardian who puts more points into health is likely to have 50%-100% more health.

Scenario 1: How long will each guardian survive on a linear timeline?
Scenario 2: If the AoR guardian had an expected health of 50% more how much longer would they survive?
Scenario 3: If there is burst damage every say 10 seconds of 2.5x the amount of DPS (250 damage ever 10 seconds) which guardian would deal with this the best?

My math:
Scenario 1:
Guardian 1:
(1-.8) x 100 = 20 damage received per second. 4000/20 = 200 seconds before death.
Guardian 2:
(1-.95) x 100 = 5 damage received per second. 4000/5 = 800 seconds
Guardian 3:
We already know its 20 damage received per second. To heal 20% health per minute that = .2 x 4000 = 800 heath per min 800/60 = 13.33 per second
.25 x 4000 = 1000 heath per min 1000/60 = 16.66 per second
20 damage per second - 13.33 damage per second = 6.77 damage received per second
4000/6.77= 590.84 seconds before death at 20% health regen per minute
20 damage per second - 16.66 damage per second = 3.44 damage per second
4000/3.44 = 1162.79 seconds before death at 25% health regen per minute
Summary:
Guardian 1 lives 200 seconds. Guardian 2 lives 800 seconds. Guardian 3 lives 590-1160 seconds. Guardian 3 average = (590 + 1160)/2 = 875 seconds


Scenario 2:
4000 x 1.5 = 6000 health.
6000/6.77 = 886.86 seconds before death
6000/3.44 = 1744.19 seconds before death

Scenario 3:
250 Damage every 10 seconds is the same as 250/10 = 25 DPS
Guardian 2
25 DPS + 5 DPS = 30 DPS 4000/30 = 133.33 seconds before death

Guardian 3
25 DPS + 6.77 DPS = 31.77 DPS 4000/31.77 = 125.9 seconds before death

Summary:
If an AoD and AoR guardian have equal health an AoR guardian will on average live 9% longer then an AoD guardian
If AoR regen is only 20% an AoD guardian will live 74% longer then an AoR guardian.
If AoR regen is 25% and AoR guardian will live 68% longer then an AoD guardian.

If AoR guardians health is 50% more then an AoD guardian an AoR guardian will live 10 % longer at 20% AoR regen and if it is 25% then an AoR guardian will live 218% longer then an AoD guardian.

Full Conclusion:
At equal health both AoR and AoD are with 10% of each other but as health scales with an AoR guardian due to naturally higher health an AoR guardian becomes significantly better.

Status Effects:
I haven't bothered with the effects of ignite and who will do better. Someone else can do that math.

[Sharmai]

there since I am absolutely horrible at putting anything I say into words and I made the fallacy of arguing words with someone else I have went and put it into math. Someone can heck my math and make sure I did it right.

If someones wants to write up something with the effects of ignite I would be all ears.

[Horse]

You mean outside of ignite being 5% of the health removed per sec?

[Sharmai]

Originally Posted by Horse

You mean outside of ignite being 5% of the health removed per sec?

?
Ok fine I'll do the math for that one too.

4000 x .05 = 200 health removed per second.

AoD Guardian
200 + 5 = 205 damage per second 4000/205 = 19.5 seconds
AoR Guardian
20 % regen
200 + 6.77 = 206.77 4000/206.77 = 19.34 seconds
25% regen
200 + 3.44 = 203.44 = 19.66 seconds

At equal health they will live very nearly the same amount of time.. within 10%.

At AoR 6000 health its..
6000 * .05 = 300 damage per second
300 + 6.77 = 306.77 6000/306.77 = 19.56 seconds
300 + 3.44 = 303.44 6000/303.44=19.77 seconds


So When ignited at 50% more health the AoR guardian lives only very extremely slightly longer then an AoD guardian at 20% regen.
When at 25% regen it is still very extremely slightly better then AoD.

Conclusion AoR when ignited is only very extremely slightly better then an AoD guardian when ignited. And when not ignited possibly (at 50% more health) extremely better then an AoD guardian.

[Qhue]

Its for reasons like this that I have 14 unspent points at level 23

[Dis]

Originally Posted by Qhue

Its for reasons like this that I have 14 unspent points at level 23

I hope the implement a skill tree reset for like X amount of Palladium

[Wodin]

Hellgate: London Forums

Ouch - apparently the new patch broke Unique items, so they spawn without any mods. I wonder if it's a side effect of taking them off the crafters?

[Dis]

Originally Posted by Wodin

Hellgate: London Forums

Ouch - apparently the new patch broke Unique items, so they spawn without any mods. I wonder if it's a side effect of taking them off the crafters?

Brilliant. Also, I found Bill Roper's letter to the customers absolutely brilliant as well. Basically he should have wrote, nothing to see here folks, please move along. He admitted nothing, and made everything seem like it was the customers fault things got all fucked up during launch.

[Rehlor]

Originally Posted by Sharmai

Full Conclusion:
At equal health both AoR and AoD are with 10% of each other but as health scales with an AoR guardian due to naturally higher health an AoR guardian becomes significantly better.

Status Effects:
I haven't bothered with the effects of ignite and who will do better. Someone else can do that math.

Your math looks fine.

Poison (which kills healing effects outright until cleared). Phase increases incomming damage by 50%(?). Both of these situations would seem to strongly prefer a higher defense. The question is how common are they in nightmare?

Also, I refuse to believe the DPS from 8 monsters at those levels ("those levels" being the levels where you have 4k+ hp) would only be 100. Gut feeling guesses being what they are (utter crap), I still think that even in the teens a group of the right mobs would outpace that number. Those laser throwing floaty things do 15'ish a peice, on a conservative estimate, with my marksman at 44% DR.

I still think there's a lot of merit to plugging in bigger numbers for your base DPS and bursts and watching how the balance shifts.

[Quineloe]

HAHAHA, they've been charging $10 PER DAY here LOL.