Expanding level caps self defeating?

Vilgan · 06-16-2007, 09:31 AM

So... got back into EQ2 with my 56 conj and like a TON of the changes. The new lfg tool (about time!!) is nice, as are the coin changes, and a variety of other things. The main thing that still kills the game for me is a lack of population density at levels other than 70. The story today is a familiar one.. log on, can't find a decent group, dink around, log off. Perhaps I'm missing out on some omg fun solo questlines (are there any at 56? PoF is boring the snot out of me and sky doesn't seem to start for a few levels), but in general I like playing with other people in a group, not just solo killing stuff. If I wanted to solo kill, I could go play a single player game that would have a lot more depth as far as plot etc.

It seems like player density is one of the top 2 or 3 complaints about eq2, and why a lot of people are heading to AB.

So... it seems like with each expansion that increases the level cap, they stretch out their population density even further making it harder to find new people to level with. The players that play who aren't cap level.. have trouble finding people and log off.. increasing the problem.

It seems like constantly increasing the cap is detrimental to the long term health of the game. Admittedly, it helps keep the top level people interested, but it seems like other forms of leveling (maybe specialization? enhance the AA system? etc) could be added to make it possible to still "level" but without stretching out the distance between newbie and "in the real part of the game now" even farther.

Anyways, maybe I'm in the minority. But as a non cap player.. my main reaction when I heard that kunark would increase the cap to 80 was "blah" and a general negative feeling about continuing to play the game.

Vilgan

... · 06-16-2007, 09:50 AM

'eh, leveling up becomes easier with each expansion too, i do see your point but new gear and powers makes leveling 'later' way easier than the first time.

boy- · 06-16-2007, 10:15 AM

Donno about EQ2, but EQ1 is expanding levels this sept and it seems rather stupid for the reasons you mentioned.

But the one difference that makes EQ1 so retarded is because there is no real additional gameplay as you traverse these additional levels. Every level cap increase in EQ1 meant we spent 20 hours in X zone (ikkinz 1, wos/rss, 69.1) to gain the 5 additional levels.

If implemented like EQ1, there's really no reason for the level increase at all. For a game like WoW, the level increase is fairly necessary, since that is what's driving the gameplay.

xmod2 · 06-16-2007, 10:21 AM

What is the difference having to level 1-70 or leveling 1-60 and needing 700 AA points?

The people who are at cap are going to need some way to advance with an expansion and you'll still have to play catch-up either way.

Digits · 06-16-2007, 10:38 AM

Yes, but adding in ever increasing amounts of levels greatly diminishes the use of content at the previous cap and delays by a matter of a few days /played the problem of giving people at cap something to do. Doesn't it seem that it would better use of developer time to create new and entertaining ways of keeping players occupied other than 'collect exp for levels/AA'? Hell, even if they just added tons of AAs to get instead of levels it'd be better because you'd actually have all that content at the level cap.

Lyenae · 06-16-2007, 10:42 AM

Expendable Abilities that cost AA's, introduced with one of the EQ packs, was a good idea.

Maxxius · 06-16-2007, 10:44 AM

Difference is you will be able to find groups I suppose if people are just grinding off AAs. But that is the nature of these games. Populations always thin out at lower levels as time goes by simply because people hit the caps. Usually you just see alts. Eventually the bulk of a game's customer base is at the cap, hence raising it is content to the vast majority.

This is probably the main reason why people rarely jump into a game that has been out for awhile; namely, not being able to find people to group with as you level to cap. It is better to wait for a new game than jump into an old one, even if that old one is 10 times better than that new game.

Witoubo · 06-16-2007, 10:55 AM

Why not allow people to start at the the level where they can group with people at the previous cap when you introduce a new expansion? Edit: For example 52 (I think) in WoW when TBC came out.

You could do a neat series of scripted events/quests. Say you start as the character and you have to complete the events with the help of a few friends. The length and difficulty of the events could be tuned as needed to keep them challenging but fun. Once you complete the events you are given a set of crappy gear and let loose in the world. The events should be tailored on a class level and designed to teach you the core set of skills you will need in groups.

You could provide a similar mechanism to allow people to promote an alt.

Sure you end up skipping content but it keeps a bulk of your players in a situation where they can find groups and enjoy the multiplayer aspects of the game. Old world zones usually end up as tourist/twink locations anyway and the value in that is minimal at best.

Zarcath · 06-16-2007, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witoubo

Why not allow people to start at the the level where they can group with people at the previous cap when you introduce a new expansion? Edit: For example 52 (I think) in WoW when TBC came out.

Sure you end up skipping content but it keeps a bulk of your players in a situation where they can find groups and enjoy the multiplayer aspects of the game. Old world zones usually end up as tourist/twink locations anyway and the value in that is minimal at best.

Yeah, that's what they need, a way for people to skip content and jump into the final levels of the game without learning a damn thing. Seriously, do you want to be doing heroic dungeons with someone who's skipped the first 51 levels? There are already many dumb asses out there that have done it legit that still don't know how to play.

Froofy-D · 06-16-2007, 11:10 AM

If you can solo to max level then there's no problem with increased level cap. If you can't solo to max, then there is a problem since new players will have serious issues leveling up.

Teljair · 06-16-2007, 11:11 AM

At level 56 go hit those solo quests in TT. The basket ones are the best!

Sabyn · 06-16-2007, 11:12 AM

I definitely think that with each raise in level cap, or just whenever, they should decrease the amount of exp needed for the first 80% of the levels or so (so if the new cap is lvl 100 you should have a much faster exp rate for the first 80 levels). This also helps for people levelling alts or rerolling or whatever.

xmod2 · 06-16-2007, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witoubo

You could provide a similar mechanism to allow people to promote an alt.

I always thought that once you hit a certain level in a game you should be able to start your alts at at least HALF that level.

In EQ2, the mentoring system does a decent job with the population imbalance. I think it just needs to give higher level players more incentive to play with the lower level players.

How did the monster shroud system from EQ1 end up working out? I like the idea of gaining something unique for taking part in the mentoring process. 1) To allow higher level characters to meaningfully revisit missed content and 2) To help make better use of the existing population.

That, or the expansion could introduce involved questlines that jumped the character up from 10-20, 20-30, etc on completion of the line.

Witoubo · 06-16-2007, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zarcath

Yeah, that's what they need, a way for people to skip content and jump into the final levels of the game without learning a damn thing. Seriously, do you want to be doing heroic dungeons with someone who's skipped the first 51 levels? There are already many dumb asses out there that have done it legit that still don't know how to play.

Yeah, because the lessons I learn doing solo/duo quests really apply to the skills I need to run a heroic? Unless of course you are the 0.0000001% of the WoW population that leveled up pre-60 exclusively in instances.

So to answer your question. Yes, I wouldn't mind doing a heroic with someone who skipped the first 51 levels. They still had to do the last 19 and run enough of the regular instances to get revered/gear for heroics. If they suck, they suck. Leveling from 1-51 doesn't magically make someone not suck ... it magically makes them lvl 52.

Greyform · 06-16-2007, 11:36 AM

I thought it would be cool if once ya hit max level you could train your character in any other field you chose, and have the ability to switch between classes as group makeup dictates.

It would be really sweet if you could have different slots for each classes armor and items (the way VG had for diplo, harvesters, and adventurers).

That would be fun and also always have folk’ level throughout the different levels of content without creating to much separation between new player and old player.

06-16-2007, 09:31 AM	#1 (permalink)
Vilgan Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 69	Expanding level caps self defeating? So... got back into EQ2 with my 56 conj and like a TON of the changes. The new lfg tool (about time!!) is nice, as are the coin changes, and a variety of other things. The main thing that still kills the game for me is a lack of population density at levels other than 70. The story today is a familiar one.. log on, can't find a decent group, dink around, log off. Perhaps I'm missing out on some omg fun solo questlines (are there any at 56? PoF is boring the snot out of me and sky doesn't seem to start for a few levels), but in general I like playing with other people in a group, not just solo killing stuff. If I wanted to solo kill, I could go play a single player game that would have a lot more depth as far as plot etc. It seems like player density is one of the top 2 or 3 complaints about eq2, and why a lot of people are heading to AB. So... it seems like with each expansion that increases the level cap, they stretch out their population density even further making it harder to find new people to level with. The players that play who aren't cap level.. have trouble finding people and log off.. increasing the problem. It seems like constantly increasing the cap is detrimental to the long term health of the game. Admittedly, it helps keep the top level people interested, but it seems like other forms of leveling (maybe specialization? enhance the AA system? etc) could be added to make it possible to still "level" but without stretching out the distance between newbie and "in the real part of the game now" even farther. Anyways, maybe I'm in the minority. But as a non cap player.. my main reaction when I heard that kunark would increase the cap to 80 was "blah" and a general negative feeling about continuing to play the game. Vilgan

06-16-2007, 09:50 AM	#2 (permalink)
... Avatar won't work. Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: ... Posts: 1,777 +0 Internets	'eh, leveling up becomes easier with each expansion too, i do see your point but new gear and powers makes leveling 'later' way easier than the first time. __________________ Eve Guides

06-16-2007, 10:38 AM	#5 (permalink)
Digits The good news is that you're still alive. The bad news is that that's the good news. Also, you have no legs. Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 'Merica, land of the free. Posts: 1,222 +6 Internets	Yes, but adding in ever increasing amounts of levels greatly diminishes the use of content at the previous cap and delays by a matter of a few days /played the problem of giving people at cap something to do. Doesn't it seem that it would better use of developer time to create new and entertaining ways of keeping players occupied other than 'collect exp for levels/AA'? Hell, even if they just added tons of AAs to get instead of levels it'd be better because you'd actually have all that content at the level cap. __________________ Hatcher Badlands Runepriest Your Favorite Folks

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06-16-2007, 10:15 AM	#3 (permalink)
boy- Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 267 +0 Internets	Donno about EQ2, but EQ1 is expanding levels this sept and it seems rather stupid for the reasons you mentioned. But the one difference that makes EQ1 so retarded is because there is no real additional gameplay as you traverse these additional levels. Every level cap increase in EQ1 meant we spent 20 hours in X zone (ikkinz 1, wos/rss, 69.1) to gain the 5 additional levels. If implemented like EQ1, there's really no reason for the level increase at all. For a game like WoW, the level increase is fairly necessary, since that is what's driving the gameplay.

06-16-2007, 10:21 AM	#4 (permalink)
xmod2 The Orange Bard Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 354 -2 Internets	What is the difference having to level 1-70 or leveling 1-60 and needing 700 AA points? The people who are at cap are going to need some way to advance with an expansion and you'll still have to play catch-up either way.

06-16-2007, 10:42 AM	#6 (permalink)
Lyenae Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,974 -27 Internets	Expendable Abilities that cost AA's, introduced with one of the EQ packs, was a good idea.

06-16-2007, 10:44 AM	#7 (permalink)
Maxxius Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: n/a Posts: 1,607 +1 Internets	Difference is you will be able to find groups I suppose if people are just grinding off AAs. But that is the nature of these games. Populations always thin out at lower levels as time goes by simply because people hit the caps. Usually you just see alts. Eventually the bulk of a game's customer base is at the cap, hence raising it is content to the vast majority. This is probably the main reason why people rarely jump into a game that has been out for awhile; namely, not being able to find people to group with as you level to cap. It is better to wait for a new game than jump into an old one, even if that old one is 10 times better than that new game.

06-16-2007, 10:55 AM	#8 (permalink)
Witoubo Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 355 -3 Internets	Why not allow people to start at the the level where they can group with people at the previous cap when you introduce a new expansion? Edit: For example 52 (I think) in WoW when TBC came out. You could do a neat series of scripted events/quests. Say you start as the character and you have to complete the events with the help of a few friends. The length and difficulty of the events could be tuned as needed to keep them challenging but fun. Once you complete the events you are given a set of crappy gear and let loose in the world. The events should be tailored on a class level and designed to teach you the core set of skills you will need in groups. You could provide a similar mechanism to allow people to promote an alt. Sure you end up skipping content but it keeps a bulk of your players in a situation where they can find groups and enjoy the multiplayer aspects of the game. Old world zones usually end up as tourist/twink locations anyway and the value in that is minimal at best.

06-16-2007, 11:10 AM	#10 (permalink)
Froofy-D upper management material Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 2,000 +8 Internets	If you can solo to max level then there's no problem with increased level cap. If you can't solo to max, then there is a problem since new players will have serious issues leveling up.

06-16-2007, 11:11 AM	#11 (permalink)
Teljair Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 173 +4 Internets	At level 56 go hit those solo quests in TT. The basket ones are the best!

06-16-2007, 11:12 AM	#12 (permalink)
Sabyn I Self Lord And Master Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 660	I definitely think that with each raise in level cap, or just whenever, they should decrease the amount of exp needed for the first 80% of the levels or so (so if the new cap is lvl 100 you should have a much faster exp rate for the first 80 levels). This also helps for people levelling alts or rerolling or whatever.

06-16-2007, 11:36 AM	#15 (permalink)
Greyform You just keep thinkin' Butch. That's what you're good at. Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 511 +4 Internets	I thought it would be cool if once ya hit max level you could train your character in any other field you chose, and have the ability to switch between classes as group makeup dictates. It would be really sweet if you could have different slots for each classes armor and items (the way VG had for diplo, harvesters, and adventurers). That would be fun and also always have folk’ level throughout the different levels of content without creating to much separation between new player and old player.