Expanding level caps self defeating? - Page 3

needraRZ · 06-17-2007, 04:06 AM

The great thing about an increased level cap is a reasonably large increase in player power.

That means more casual players being able to experience the previous end game content but in such a way that its less hardcore and easier.

This was thee joy of EQ and something dreadfully missing in WoW. I was in a cutting edge guild killing Quarm, but my friends were in a casual guilding having a BLAST doings Sshara/NToV and VT.

They just wernt commited and organised enough to be at the end game, but were enjoying experiencing new content and meeting challenges that matched them.

Of course the problem with this argument is that wow did increase level cap and has this problem, so theres more to it that just level cap,but its part of the equasion.

Ukerric · 06-17-2007, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by needraRZ

Of course the problem with this argument is that wow did increase level cap and has this problem, so theres more to it that just level cap,but its part of the equasion.

It's not just level. It's the whole character power that does this. It's why it's almost useless, unless you're real hardcore, to start after two-three years in any progression-based MMO. After two years, the hardcore are firmly lodged at the upper end of character power, but the casuals have had time to get to the upper end.

Unless your MMO manages to attract a significant proportion of new population each month (i.e. it's growing by a two digit % per year - even after two years OR it's suffering from massive churn), there's little to expect from early levels. Stopping and restarting is the same : you just shift the (re)starting point.

It doesn't matter if it's levels, items, whatever. Starting on your own in a progression MMO after a year is doomed to failure (unless you're modestly hardcore, and enjoy soloing - you can slog, catch up to the casuals, and start enjoying groups reasonably)

Mkopec1 · 06-17-2007, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ukerric

It's not just level. It's the whole character power that does this. It's why it's almost useless, unless you're real hardcore, to start after two-three years in any progression-based MMO. After two years, the hardcore are firmly lodged at the upper end of character power, but the casuals have had time to get to the upper end.

Unless your MMO manages to attract a significant proportion of new population each month (i.e. it's growing by a two digit % per year - even after two years OR it's suffering from massive churn), there's little to expect from early levels. Stopping and restarting is the same : you just shift the (re)starting point.

It doesn't matter if it's levels, items, whatever. Starting on your own in a progression MMO after a year is doomed to failure (unless you're modestly hardcore, and enjoy soloing - you can slog, catch up to the casuals, and start enjoying groups reasonably)

This can be easily solved by the strategic use of new servers. I remember I stared EQ Christmas 2000,a year after the oigonal on a new server, and I basically had the same experience that someone had starting back in 1999.

Look how popular new WoW servers are, and look how popular the EQ progression servers were. I thik this is an overlooked feature that MMO companies dont take advantage of enough.

Im willing to bet that if a new EQ "progression" server opened up tomorrow, it would still recieve a huge influx of players.

In a lifecycle of a game like EQ,when they merge servers, they should open up 1+ new server, and always starting form the beginning of the life cycle of the games progression. I think EQ progression proved that this model does work and was quite popular.

Maxxius · 06-17-2007, 12:38 PM

I used to do that a lot, hop to new servers when they opened. Only problem is these servers are popular for awhile then people bail out, leaving a server now underpopulated.

Kilaara · 06-18-2007, 06:09 AM

When you design special Servers for Newbies / Mids / Endgamers you will create 3 different games.

You play on your Newbserver until you hit Level xx. So now you can play there but will not gain any more experience. After that you will choose your new Midserver an level there to xx*2. You cant go back to help your friend .. .
You reach max level of that server and go further to the Engameserver.

From one part of view it looks cool but from another part of view that looks worse.

EQ1 has shown that all the new expansions ( with or without a new level ) had the same effect.

pre kunark .. Freeport ( or another town of the old world ) was populated.
Kunark Firona V. and Overthere were populated
next expansion the dwarven town ( dont remember the names ) was populated
....

Each expansion "killed" the former Meetingtown and made a new one. Each expansion "killed" the former exp zones and made new ones. So in EQ they decided to renew some of the older dungeons for new/ higher content ... .

Lower Guk / Sebilis .. all of the highest crowded dungeons/areas of the older expansions were Ghostdungeons/areas in Pop ... Maybe you found one to 2 players in Sebilis ( making lots of money solo ) or one player in guk for faction ...

When you make an expansion ( with or without levelup ) it should not be eliminate the older ones.

When you reach the maximum level, there is nothing more to do than do make youre equippment better. Thats never enough to hold the ppl. for a longer time.
EQ1 made this with AAs ( a real great idea in that time )
WoW made nothing so ppl. tried to make fun with leveling the next ( and next .. ) toon.
AO has such a high level 220 that you need lots of time reaching it.
EVE has no level so you can skill for years ( I heard all skills maxing would cost around 30 ? years .

Miele · 06-19-2007, 08:09 AM

I don't really see what is the problem, honestly.
In EQ2 you have mentoring, so level 70 can mentor to 56 and exp with you (and they get AA exp too).
Levelling to 70 takes just as much it took from 1 to 50 at release, because the exp curve has been changed and tweaked and vitality was introduced.
I personally like levels with the mentoring system, without it, it would be very a very retarded system.

EQ2 has now a truckload of zones, the "thin" population is just because of that: 10 people in each zone does mean that a ton of players are online at the same time. A big factor is also that on a 2,5 years old game, most of the playerbase is in an estabilished guild, playing with guildmates more often than not.
I play on Lucan D'Lere and being on EU primetime, I'm seldom online during server primetime and most of the time my groups are "guild only", although I sometimes fill them with outside players and never had a problem finding someone to join. LFG tool, tier specific chat channels... I don't know what else you could possibly want at this point.

Zerai · 06-19-2007, 08:16 AM

Tier specific chat channels amuse the hell out of me.

someguy 30-39 channel: Looking for DPS, 40+

It's just comedy gold.

Garrison · 06-20-2007, 02:25 PM

MMO’s are schizophrenic. On one hand, the social aspect is their only compelling feature; I’ve yet to see any MMO that truly required advanced individual skill and strategy. On the other hand, MMO’s always seem to erect barriers to that same social interaction (shards, levels, zones, meaningful travel). Technological limitations undoubtedly lead to some of the barriers, the basic business model others. Most, though, seem to be self inflicted.

I guess what I’d like to see is a MMO that still had advancement, but was structured in a way where a new player could still play with an experienced player in a meaningful way. One example would be a war game where you needed to be > level 10 to fly the bomber. To be successful, you would also need someone to man the anti-aircraft guns. That gunner could be could be anyone, including a level 1 newbie. Player skill and the gun’s stats would determine their effectiveness.

Not sure what you would use for phat loot, though.

redjunkopera · 06-20-2007, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zerai

Tier specific chat channels amuse the hell out of me.

someguy 30-39 channel: Looking for DPS, 40+

It's just comedy gold.

Or the guy advertising for his 20+ level req guild in 1-9...

Slide · 06-21-2007, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zarcath

Yeah, that's what they need, a way for people to skip content and jump into the final levels of the game without learning a damn thing. Seriously, do you want to be doing heroic dungeons with someone who's skipped the first 51 levels? There are already many dumb asses out there that have done it legit that still don't know how to play.

Thats bullshit, competence isn't a product of time /played. Time played indicates an ability to commit to playing a large amount of time. These games aren't particularly complicated, and i'd rather have a cleric that bought the character and has a basic understanding of mechanics and social requirements than some fuckhead cleric that has spent 300 days played and still doesn't understand the idea of working in a team.

Seths · 06-21-2007, 04:02 PM

I tried to think of a way to remove levels in mmo's but no matter what gauge you go by be it level, skills, gear, etc you're still going to end up having to have some kind of progression that will in the end spread out your population the same way I think.

You will either need skill A to get B to get to C and so on. Or you'll need this piece of gear to get that one to be able to do that mob / zone / dungeon. Or you'll need a certain level. As far as Fantasy goes I just don't see how an MMO can be done without something like that or else you'd get bored very fast.

06-17-2007, 04:06 AM	#31 (permalink)
needraRZ Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 197 -6 Internets	Level cap The great thing about an increased level cap is a reasonably large increase in player power. That means more casual players being able to experience the previous end game content but in such a way that its less hardcore and easier. This was thee joy of EQ and something dreadfully missing in WoW. I was in a cutting edge guild killing Quarm, but my friends were in a casual guilding having a BLAST doings Sshara/NToV and VT. They just wernt commited and organised enough to be at the end game, but were enjoying experiencing new content and meeting challenges that matched them. Of course the problem with this argument is that wow did increase level cap and has this problem, so theres more to it that just level cap,but its part of the equasion.

06-19-2007, 08:09 AM	#36 (permalink)
Miele Disco Disco! Good Good! Join Date: May 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 913 +8 Internets	I don't really see what is the problem, honestly. In EQ2 you have mentoring, so level 70 can mentor to 56 and exp with you (and they get AA exp too). Levelling to 70 takes just as much it took from 1 to 50 at release, because the exp curve has been changed and tweaked and vitality was introduced. I personally like levels with the mentoring system, without it, it would be very a very retarded system. EQ2 has now a truckload of zones, the "thin" population is just because of that: 10 people in each zone does mean that a ton of players are online at the same time. A big factor is also that on a 2,5 years old game, most of the playerbase is in an estabilished guild, playing with guildmates more often than not. I play on Lucan D'Lere and being on EU primetime, I'm seldom online during server primetime and most of the time my groups are "guild only", although I sometimes fill them with outside players and never had a problem finding someone to join. LFG tool, tier specific chat channels... I don't know what else you could possibly want at this point. __________________ A dire bugie si va all'inferno, a dire cagate si va affanculo. Last edited by Miele; 06-19-2007 at 09:36 AM..

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06-17-2007, 12:38 PM	#34 (permalink)
Maxxius Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: n/a Posts: 1,607 +1 Internets	I used to do that a lot, hop to new servers when they opened. Only problem is these servers are popular for awhile then people bail out, leaving a server now underpopulated.

06-18-2007, 06:09 AM	#35 (permalink)
Kilaara Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 55 -1 Internets	When you design special Servers for Newbies / Mids / Endgamers you will create 3 different games. You play on your Newbserver until you hit Level xx. So now you can play there but will not gain any more experience. After that you will choose your new Midserver an level there to xx*2. You cant go back to help your friend .. . You reach max level of that server and go further to the Engameserver. From one part of view it looks cool but from another part of view that looks worse. EQ1 has shown that all the new expansions ( with or without a new level ) had the same effect. pre kunark .. Freeport ( or another town of the old world ) was populated. Kunark Firona V. and Overthere were populated next expansion the dwarven town ( dont remember the names ) was populated .... Each expansion "killed" the former Meetingtown and made a new one. Each expansion "killed" the former exp zones and made new ones. So in EQ they decided to renew some of the older dungeons for new/ higher content ... . Lower Guk / Sebilis .. all of the highest crowded dungeons/areas of the older expansions were Ghostdungeons/areas in Pop ... Maybe you found one to 2 players in Sebilis ( making lots of money solo ) or one player in guk for faction ... When you make an expansion ( with or without levelup ) it should not be eliminate the older ones. When you reach the maximum level, there is nothing more to do than do make youre equippment better. Thats never enough to hold the ppl. for a longer time. EQ1 made this with AAs ( a real great idea in that time ) WoW made nothing so ppl. tried to make fun with leveling the next ( and next .. ) toon. AO has such a high level 220 that you need lots of time reaching it. EVE has no level so you can skill for years ( I heard all skills maxing would cost around 30 ? years .

06-19-2007, 08:16 AM	#37 (permalink)
Zerai ~ Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An Igloo Posts: 3,871 +6 Internets	Tier specific chat channels amuse the hell out of me. someguy 30-39 channel: Looking for DPS, 40+ It's just comedy gold.

06-20-2007, 02:25 PM	#38 (permalink)
Garrison Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4 +0 Internets	MMO’s are schizophrenic. On one hand, the social aspect is their only compelling feature; I’ve yet to see any MMO that truly required advanced individual skill and strategy. On the other hand, MMO’s always seem to erect barriers to that same social interaction (shards, levels, zones, meaningful travel). Technological limitations undoubtedly lead to some of the barriers, the basic business model others. Most, though, seem to be self inflicted. I guess what I’d like to see is a MMO that still had advancement, but was structured in a way where a new player could still play with an experienced player in a meaningful way. One example would be a war game where you needed to be > level 10 to fly the bomber. To be successful, you would also need someone to man the anti-aircraft guns. That gunner could be could be anyone, including a level 1 newbie. Player skill and the gun’s stats would determine their effectiveness. Not sure what you would use for phat loot, though.

06-21-2007, 04:02 PM	#41 (permalink)
Seths Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 389	I tried to think of a way to remove levels in mmo's but no matter what gauge you go by be it level, skills, gear, etc you're still going to end up having to have some kind of progression that will in the end spread out your population the same way I think. You will either need skill A to get B to get to C and so on. Or you'll need this piece of gear to get that one to be able to do that mob / zone / dungeon. Or you'll need a certain level. As far as Fantasy goes I just don't see how an MMO can be done without something like that or else you'd get bored very fast.