[WoW] Respawning trash as a game mechanic

[Froofy-D]

For those who haven't been playing BC, there's an awesome new "pacing mechanic" where all trash mobs before each raid encounter fully respawn approximately every 4 attempts upon said raid encounter. Considering that extremely difficult encounters often require 20+ failed attempts to learn, that adds up to a hell of a lot of repetitive trash clearing. I would like to ask:

- Can anyone justify fast respawning trash as a good game mechanic, and explain why doing a full trash clear per 4 boss attempts is anything other than a time sink?
- Isn't spending gold/time farming for consumables and repair costs enough of a price for failure?

Obviously there has to be some trash, since every encounter cannot be a boss encounter. Extremely difficult trash is fine. However, a) excessive amounts and b) fast respawns are not fine. Look at every Blizzard dungeon retune in history, raid or not, and you'll see excessive trash reduction was at the top of almost every player complaint list. Do we really need it to be respawning now?

Anyway, BC is a great expansion and I'm having a lot of fun. For the most part WoW has some of the best game design of any MMOG (opinion obviously). But I just cannot fathom how the same team that gets so much right, can support fast respawning trash as a good game mechanic. Put that on the list with pre-summon meeting stones and lack of a decent LFG tool, as design choices that lead you to wonder, wtf were they thinking?

edit: bumped it to 4 attempts per trash clear, but its obviously a rough estimate that varies per encounter

[Saban]

Trash respawns should only occur when the instance resets, and that includes those bullshit patrol mobs.

[voodoochile78]

It reminds me of 2 years ago when you were trying to do LBRS with a PuG. I don't know who at Blizzard thought it would be a good idea...

[45th Parallel]

I once thought as Blizzard does. Then I played a game called Shadow of the Colossus. It convinced me that the days of trash as a "pacing mechanic" are over.

As far as I'm concerned, all trash should be removed from all dungeons that have a raid timer.

[kohl]

Originally Posted by Saban

Trash respawns should only occur when the instance resets, and that includes those bullshit patrol mobs.

I tend to agree. Taking Karazhan as an example, the longer respawns aren't quite so bad. As much as I /snore doing the trash from Curator to Shade, it's on a fairly long respawn (although they should take 1/3 of it out IMHO).

The only fast trash respawn that was used well was the Supression Room in BWL because it was part of the gimmick.

[Zerai]

Originally Posted by 45th Parallel

I once thought as Blizzard does. Then I played a game called Shadow of the Colossus. It convinced me that the days of trash as a "pacing mechanic" are over.

As far as I'm concerned, all trash should be removed from all dungeons that have a raid timer.

Unless trash has a point, to teach you about something about the boss, anything. Instead it's just..kill these packs of stuff.

LoTRO kinda did it nice, like invading a crypt, you'd have skeletons climbing out of the floor.

But like Naxx? You can plan your pull technique just looking into the next room, and it becomes mechanical.

[InterWill]

When we first entered BWL, I thought "Blizzard actually gets it".

First room, first encounter.
Second room, second encounter.
Then a little bit of trash, then the supression room - which is part of the boss encounter.

Then the *real* trash started, such a shame.

[dak]

1. The bosses are not world spawn and are in an instanced event just for you.

2. The instance saves your progress for a whole week.

3. Short of respawns, there is real no limiting factor other than repair/consumable costs for how many attempts you can make.

What do you want this game to be? SNES Contra 3 with a unlimited lives game genie code on?

Since late 80s arcade times this is how games work. You beat a stage then you fight a boss. You get so many "lives" to do so before you have to use a "continue". If you do that you have to start the stage over. It's nothing new, adds pressure to perform on the player and longevity to the games content.

Sheesh

[Arbitrary]

If a raid force is having a hard time and wiping over and over is it really necessary to punish them more by having trash respawn? Repair bills and consumable (even light) usage still adds up.

I don't see the need for a mechanic that kicks you when you are down.

[bombayandtonic]

I dont care to go looking for the post, but someone did a nice spot analysis of trash on the Blizzard Raids Forum the other day. Something to the effect of:


MC -> High Trash, Low Fun
BWL -> Low Trash, High Fun
AQ -> Medium Trash, Medium Fun
Nax -> Low Trash, High Fun
Kara -> High Trash, Sucks Monkey Nuts

Anything more than BWL/Nax trash is just a crappy pacing mechanism.

It makes me want to punch someone from Blizzard when you see the "All things in moderation, even WoW" loading screen tip, when they force Kara and other instance runs to take forever.

[kasey]

My first guess is they wanted to use respawn as balancing tool in order to prevent nonstop attempts at the boss until its dead however they forget the tedious consumable grind.

Anyways, because the pain tolerance of WoW players is that of a sedated groupie/hysterical fan ( "pee on me my master" <3 Snoop Dogg ) you will have to endure the shitty customer relationship and the shitty content and the shitty same stupid crap until you will quit.

sincerely,

someone who broke out of that cell


P.S. Theres about 5 million new players in line waiting for their turn to be peed on, you wont be missed either.

[Taranatar]

Anyone remember the days when dungeons spawned shit right behind you when you were still fighting the next guy? VT is one place of note I can think of.

And you think this shit is hard? Pussy.

[Arbitrary]

Originally Posted by dak

Since late 80s arcade times this is how games work. You beat a stage then you fight a boss. You get so many "lives" to do so before you have to use a "continue". If you do that you have to start the stage over. It's nothing new, adds pressure to perform on the player and longevity to the games content.

How about this? Fuck late 80s game design.

[Sean]

If you're only getting 3 attempts in on a boss in TBC before trash respawns then you are doing something wrong.

2 hour timers on SSC and TK trash. That's enough for way more than 3 attempts unless you do some absolutely horrible fucking around on the trash clear. Also if that's all you're getting in on a boss in there then you're probably undergeared for both of the zones as it is.

The Karazhan respawn timer is pretty damn long so I don't think you're talking about that. The respawn timers on Gruul and Magetheridon trash are only an hour, but they're really short clears. Again on those - if you're only getting in 3 attempts you're undergeared or playing poorly.

Yes, the amount of trash sucks. The respawn timers at 2 hours for SSC/TK and 1 hour of Gruuls and Magetheridon are still too fast. But you're way overstating it and exagerating.

The trash does need toned down a bit and the timers should be extended again (if not completely done away with), yes... but let's not make up bullshit to prove a point.

[Hozz]

Trash is fine if there is a point to it.

Some trash drops things you need, like Naxx trash. Although I guess it would have been better if they had just ditched the components for the quest rewards beyond the boss drop, like they did in the TBC sets.

Some trash is actually half the challenge of the upcoming boss, like Broodlord and Heigan.

Beyond that? Get rid of it. The Coilfang stuff is really irritating so far. Karazhan was at first, now its just a hassle. But it all boils down to a tedious timesink.