Nino...One of the upsides of VG.

[MetalNeo]

Originally Posted by Tuco

I think the hardest thing about adding in a new class is finding room for a decent Niche that is viable in all the aspects of the game like the current classes are. (PVE solo/small team/group/raiding, PVP solo/smallteam/group/raiding)

The biggest thing I see missing in WoW's class lineup is someone who works with debuffing/buffing/prevention, but it's really hard to kill a mob solo by debuffing it, and it's also hard having decent buffs that can be used in every raid encounter.

That being said, I'd also want to see Blizzard try new things instead of sticking to working formulas and polishing them. Unfortunately, 'new' stuff is something that Blizzard really has never done.

I still wish original WoW had Deathknights instead of Shaman...

[MetalNeo]

Originally Posted by Tuco

With a deathknight you'd just need to find a way to differentiate the playstyle from a shaman. You could do it, I'm sure, but how blurred would the lines be with a viable character? Even if the image of a plated lawful evil warrior cursing his foes is the exact opposite of a chaotic wiseman using ancient spirits to overcome the oppressors, in the end you'd have a melee/caster hybrid that can either specialize in tanking, melee DPS, or caster DPS.

The best bet would be to play to the debuffing side since no classes have that many debuffs (warlocks having the most), but then you run into the problems I mentioned, and having the DPS-enhancing based debuffs that wouldn't be as big of a problem (as opposed to the mobs-ability based debuffs) would conflict with the warlock.


Player housing is a definite positive in most of the ways they could do it. Frankly I'd like them to have cheaper instanced housing and difficult to get and maintain guild housing. In a small but content rich game like WoW, non-instanced landscape is expensive, but I'm sure they could cap the number of houses and then assemble requirements to procure the houses (in a hopefully non-monetary way. Making housing cost more than it's worth to progress a guild effectively kills the primo-housing going to the best raiding guilds on the server).

Deathknight differentiate from a shaman???? they arent even remotely the same. The problem is most the abilities a DK had in say WC3 are warlock abilities in WoW.

Once again DK would have been better straight from the beginning giving horde a plate class besides warrior.

[Tuco]

Originally Posted by MetalNeo

Deathknight differentiate from a shaman???? they arent even remotely the same. The problem is most the abilities a DK had in say WC3 are warlock abilities in WoW.

Once again DK would have been better straight from the beginning giving horde a plate class besides warrior.

Yeah in WC3 they are, but translating that to an MMO, what would a DK do that would be so different from what a shaman, paladin and warlock does?

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Tuco

Yeah in WC3 they are, but translating that to an MMO, what would a DK do that would be so different from what a shaman, paladin and warlock does?

Give them auras that debuff mobs within range. Could have it reduce atk power or resists or whatever.

Instant cast lifetaps on a timer.

Give them weapon buffs similar to a shaman, but different. Shadow damage + a debuff, disease damage + a dot. Can even have a jugement type ability that consumes the detriment for a more powerful effect.

No, I don't think they could do anything radcially different from current mechanics with it, but they could give it a unique flavor.

The biggest piece of sucktitude is giving Death Coil, which was a DK's defining ability, to whining ass warlocks.

[Camerous]

I deleted VG off my comp tonight and found that there were 2 versions of it. One was 27gb and the other 18gb... so had 45gs of VG on the comp hehe. Guess I didn't delete my Beta version or something.

[Cadrid]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

We also need to make sure there is great loot in the dungeons, that there is an altar nearby if you need to summon your corpse, make sure the penalty for summoning your corpse isn't too painful so people will take some risk and explore the depths of the larger dungeons, etc.

I'm not trying to kick dirt in your face, and I'm sorry if it seems like I am. However, aren't these key points that should have been addressed during the initial, alpha, or closed-beta stages? I am not a game designer, but it seems like "The Carrot" should be near the top of the list when it comes to designing a game. I understand you ran out of development time, and I understand that a great deal of the concepts you had planned to "shake things up" in the genre ended up being scratched (If VG's combat had been anything like LOTRO's I would've been ecstatic), but big selling points like difficulty of play and Risk vs. Reward should have been vigorously debated and tested years ago.

[Neric]

Originally Posted by Shaof

Sounds like you're the one who doesn't understand business practices in this industry. All MMO's on the market benefit from any game in the circle building the entire pool of users. It has nothing to do with taking users from other titles. A failing MMO is bad for all MMO's. A successful MMO like WoW is good for all MMO's.

If you look back to the EQ era, EQ, DAoC and AC had to compete from that same pool of players, because it was limited. Blizzard grew the pool by using a business model that took a loyal fanbase from other genres and migrated them into a fun MMO. That only helps the genre as a whole. It's a good thing for the gaming industry.

You are making an argument for some sort of cooperation between publishers. Sure, it makes sense for them to grow the overall size of the market, but only if unlimited growth is possible. I don't see it, because WoW doesn't have 10 million subscribers yet, which they should have by now if their curve was going up at a stable rate. Obviously there is a peak and because of that, taking users from other titles is one of the main marketing concepts.

DAoC had horses and dye, why do you think EQ got the same in Luclin? It was a direct reaction to get customers back or to prevent some from leaving.

When Brad left SoE, he had something to prove. He wanted to show them that he could make a better and more successful game. With a limited market this meant that he had to draw customers from EQ2. That goal became obsolete with the merge. Shortly after, Vanguard started to adopt massive WoW features...

You probably never followed the F/22 competition the military contracted out to two companies. The short of it is, both teams helped each other when needed because the success of both aircraft was necessary for the success of the program.

That's a nice example going in the same direction, but once again it's not describing the situation. Both airplane companies tried to get a contract, here Blizzard already has a contract. For Blizzard it makes sense to protect their interest. You can be sure that they are not willing to lose customers to SoE to server some idealistic reason. It may sound cruel, but there is no friendship in business, at least not when we are talking about profit worth millions of dollars.

But whatever. The last thing Blizzard needs to worry about is losing subs to competition. If you saw Bill Gates in the news prior to the release of Vista, he was asked how he felt about the latest attack ads by Mac. His response was, 'It doesn't bother me. We have 90% of the market share'.

Quite arrogant isn't it?
The point is that Gates knows that his customers are tied to MS, because 100% of the business applications run on Windows. With MMOs it's different. People are tied to their characters and to their guilds, but if they get burned out they leave. If only 5% of them decide to give Vanguard a try, we are talking about 300k subscriptions. 300k x $12 = $3.6 million.

I don't know about you, but if I was in charge, I'd rather see my company make 3.6 million more each month. Looks better in my vita. If you have a different opinion on it, you are too good for this world.

[The Hiram Key]

Originally Posted by Camerous

I attack just about everyone from time to time.. so don't feel too special there.. ;-) But I would like to say the ONLY reason I was attacking you was because of your posting of the same shit over and over again not the fact of that your posts were attacking VG.

You were on the bandwagon like everyone else, but I won't hold a grudge against you.

[Lusiphur]

Pages and pages of this in two threads. There is of course going to be repetition and plenty of it (hell, I am doing it myself .. zing).

I would however like to point out that if your defense of Vanguard (like Cam I just removed it from my HDD last night) is that it isn't WoW then you have a big problem right there. You are so busy defining the game in terms of what it is not that you cannot see where people are pointing out what are (for them) the flaws of what Vanguard is.

That being said I am glad to see 't3h Brad' has finally got it (and carping on at him after his mea culpa is just petty). Now if he would just drop his stubborn attitude about instancing and accept that it has its place in the gamespace he can get on with turning Vanguard into the kind of game we can all admire. This is no different a path from the one EQ 2 had to take to go from suck to awesome. Quite a few sacred cows had to be sacrificed on the altar of the Blood God.

[Ravensign]

My only problem with Brad's post is the section on all the great new stuff that they supposedly want to add.

If they don't fix the VG of *today* and make it tighter, there won't be a VG to add RTS elements or whatever new sauce he's talking about. Certainly, his oft-quoted "grass roots" word of mouth movement won't happen (especially against the surprisingly decent LOTRO, AoC and Warhammer) if the current VG doesn't inspire people.

IMHO, if Brad came out and said everything he said about the state of the game, but then said we have dropped literally everything to get this shit right as is, it would have shown even more lucidity.

[Kreugen]

Instanced raids is the next logical evolutionary step for VG. Soon it will catch up to five years ago.

PS: I just don't want to ever see another game resuse the same instances 50 fucking times like EQ2 "the giant copout" does, okay? EQ1 does the same thing of course - the end game raid zones double as 6-man dungeons. llllaaaaame. Worst.Design.Ever.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Ravensign

if the current VG doesn't inspire people.

IMHO, if Brad came out and said everything he said about the state of the game, but then said we have dropped literally everything to get this shit right as is, it would have shown even more lucidity.

Eh. VG is much less buggy than it was at release (yeah it really needed three months like we all said back in Jan) as to the whether VG inspires people -- VG is far from perfect but I certainly won't be playing anything else for the foreseeable future so AFAIK the shit is right -- or at least more right than anything else out there or coming out. VG may not be your cup of tea but it certainly is mine and I'd guess the other people who play and have resubbed. The worst thing that could happen to VG is that they add all the shit in that everyone insists it needs. It should remain a non-instanced, group-centric, difficult game.

Reality is that even if Brad puts in all things you guys say you want you're still not going to play the game (and I'll always credit THK for his honesty with respect to this as he actually came out and said so months ago) so he should concentrate on making his current base happy (a bird in the hand and etc) not catering to people who don't actually -- and aren't ever going to -- play the game.

SWG is the shining example of what happens when you ignore the preferences of your player base and make changes they hate in an effort to broaden your base.

[Ravensign]

I hadn't really intended to assert that they change VG's style at all.

I certainly am not going to play VG regardless of what they do (well never, say never).

What I was saying is that they should make the VG that you like as tight as possible polish wise, bug wise, content wise, class balance wise, itemization wise etc, before talking about player run RTS element cities and other such.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Ravensign

I hadn't really intended to assert that they change VG's style at all.

I certainly am not going to play VG regardless of what they do (well never, say never).

What I was saying is that they should make the VG that you like as tight as possible polish wise, bug wise, content wise, class balance wise, itemization wise etc, before talking about player run RTS element cities and other such.

Fair enough. But some things are impossible (class balance? does any MMO actually have class balance? ) I guess I'd be happy with the group bugs fixed and more content. And that's coming in time.

Some things are just never going to be "fixed" -- people who do not form static groups early (whether through RL/OL or guild friends) are _always_ going to have trouble grouping no matter how good the LFG tool gets.

Class balance is always going to be an issue. Anytime you nerf class X, people start yelling that you now need to nerf class Y. I actually thought the balance they had pre-nerfing in beta 4 was the best -- yeah Disciples were overpowered but so was everyone else but Rogues. Instead of nerfing everyone they should have buffed Rogues and just made the 4 and 5 dot mobs a little tougher.

VG is never going to be as polished as WoW and I can't say I care at this point. Dealing with the rough edges doesn't put hair on my chest or make my e-peen grow but it also doesn't bother me that much anymore. Two people in my static group have a quest clickie that isn't working right now -- It'll get fixed in a patch or two in the meantime we all have a lot of other things we can do.

So I guess I think its fine to put stuff in even though some stuff isn't finished -- it'll forever be a work in progress which is okay. The alternative is WoW's 2 year wait for an expansion which sucked for a lot of different reason. Yeah WoW is as polished as any MMO will ever be (until the next Blizz MMO of course ;p) but 2 years for an expansion was a bit much.

[Kreugen]

The best part is, it spawned yet another highly entertaining raving idiot hater post over at SV FoH - Silky Venom

Sadly there are slightly more people with a clue posting than drooling morons, but there are some gems in there nonetheless.