Nino...One of the upsides of VG.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Draegan

I think most people who play WOW and want to move on will play LOTRO or WHO just because of the overall sameness with all those games. (Gameplay, UI, design etc.) This isn't a knock on VG but the two games garner to two different audiences.

I don't agree with that really. I think the major difference in the WoW and VG audiences is that VG appeals to a small subset of the audience that WoW appeals to. WoW can be just as hardcore as any other game out there, it has elements to support them and indeed they do it. Otherwise the 'premiere' guilds of EQ wouldn't be playing it.

The overall audience that WoW appeals to is obviously much broader, but it also encompasses many of the same people that VG appeals to.

VG shouldn't be fighting to appeal to as many WoW subscribers as it can, it should focus on being more appealing to one particular section of WoW's playerbase.

[Draegan]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

I don't agree with that really. I think the major difference in the WoW and VG audiences is that VG appeals to a small subset of the audience that WoW appeals to. WoW can be just as hardcore as any other game out there, it has elements to support them and indeed they do it. Otherwise the 'premiere' guilds of EQ wouldn't be playing it.

The overall audience that WoW appeals to is obviously much broader, but it also encompasses many of the same people that VG appeals to.

VG shouldn't be fighting to appeal to as many WoW subscribers as it can, it should focus on being more appealing to one particular section of WoW's playerbase.

I was speaking of players in broadest sense possible. If WOW suddenly closed down and 8 million subs had to choose a new MMO to play (assuming they want to continue to play in the genre) they would choose LOTRO or WHO based purely on game design.

[Vinen]

Originally Posted by Draegan

I was speaking of players in broadest sense possible. If WOW suddenly closed down and 8 million subs had to choose a new MMO to play (assuming they want to continue to play in the genre) they would choose LOTRO or WHO based purely on game design.

The average WoW player is exactly who Turbine is targeting. Their entire game design is based around WoW according to one of my CoWorkers who previously worked at Turbine (He quit and left the gaming industry).

[Twobit Whore]

And honestly, I can't fault them for it. The keynotes given by Pardo is like MMO design for dummies and should be required reading. Make stuff, then make it fun, then make it bigger while keeping it fun. It's so easy a caveman could do it!

[The Hiram Key]

Originally Posted by Braen

Still, you took another opertunity to hit a dev when he is down. You show great class there. Hiram even said he appreciated it while you take another pot shot.

Sometimes there is no pleasing some people, you complain about something, the dev comes clean and you complain about his coming clean. Bitching for bitching sake.

I don't play Vanguard. I am not a blind vanboi anymore, my blinders are off. The game has potential but it isn't enough for me to play even though I currently have the Station Access until they raise their price then I am going to only subscribe to EQ2.

As much of a Neric fan that I am, I am going to agree with Braen here. Brad was straight up, owned up to his mistakes and apologized numerous times. I am not sure what else he can do here short of pouring gasoline on himself and striking a match.

I think he came clean and I am willing to give him another try, but rest assured if the spin machine gets cranked up and he starts talking out the side of his mouth again (like he did with the wall of text: ITS THE MARKETING AND MESSAGE ! ! !) I will be all over him like stink on shit.

He deserves, at the very least, a minor break.

[The Hiram Key]

Originally Posted by tad10

Man get banned for a month come back and it seems like it was yesterady as the same asshats who know shit about the state of game (and who know they know shit about the state of the game) are saying the same stupid things.

Of course since I know a couple of you post the same crap on the SV forums under different aliases I can't say I'm surprised.

Edit: Super forum weirdness double post when I didn't hit enter never happened before-ness.

[The Hiram Key]

Originally Posted by tad10

Man get banned for a month come back and it seems like it was yesterady as the same asshats who know shit about the state of game (and who know they know shit about the state of the game) are saying the same stupid things.

Of course since I know a couple of you post the same crap on the SV forums under different aliases I can't say I'm surprised.

Glad your back Tad, your particular brand of "lunatic ass-hattery" has been in short supply since you were banned. Others like Camm tried to fill in for you, but as you well know, THERE AIN'T NOTHING LIKE THE REAL THING BABY !!!!

Cuppzy, if you look again, he owned up to numerous mistakes, took the blame for all of them, and apologized numerous times. I think when he has the spin machine set to 10 (on a 1-8 scale) you don't really see that kind of stuff. I don't think his post was a miracle, but at least its a big improvement over his last "it's the message and marketing" schpeel.

Jesus fuck did I just defend Brad ?!?

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

. . . ., make sure the penalty for summoning your corpse isn't too painful so people will take some risk and explore the depths of the larger dungeons, etc.

Then why even bother with one Brad. This point always drives me nuts. Is it simply because well that's how it was done from the days of roll the dice games? You clearly see the deterring effect penalties have just by your observation.

[kcxiv]

Originally Posted by The Hiram Key

Jesus fuck did I just defend Brad ?!?

uh oh. I think the pigs are flying.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

Then why even bother with one Brad. This point always drives me nuts. Is it simply because well that's how it was done from the days of roll and dice games? You clearly see the deterring effect penalties have just by your observation.

Yeah, I don't get it. You don't want the penalty to deter people from doing stuff, but you want to make sure it's there just to annoy them?

Either one or the other, there is no middle ground. Make the penalty harsh so doing extreme things is rare, risky and very rewarding.. or have virtually no penalty at all so more people get to do extreme things (ideally everything rewarding would be extreme) and maybe have fun in the process.

I don't see the middle ground possible there.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

You know, I'm a little tired of WoW. But if I were going to quit it and go to a new game, it wouldn't be VG. I'd go hit up LotRO for a couple months while Blizzard works the kinks out of the raiding content then come back and enjoy it.

That is exactly my plan Twobit, mainly because, as said elsewhere, there is just so much time in the day for these games. I'd rather commit to playing 2 maybe even 3 quick paced games and flip flop between them than one "hardcore."

[The Hiram Key]

Originally Posted by kcxiv

uh oh. I think the pigs are flying.

Actually KC, I try to defend anyone (and that would include you) if their right to post their opinions/thoughts/rants etc, comes under attack. Makes it seem like people such as Tad10 and Cammerous are completely "batshit insane" for attacking me, but alas we must forgive them, for they know not what they do.

[Esmo]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

Certainly none of the above mistakes were planned for. Many/most were unexpected.

I still don't understand how you can continue to say this with a straight face. Over the years there were SO many constructive (in addition to the multitude of destructive) posts outlining the issues that became the primary mistakes listed. There were posts on the original Sigil boards, posts on the VG boards and posts on the beta boards that all addressed these issues over and over. That the mistakes happened cannot possibly be unexpected; what I think was unexpected, or more accurately suprising to you, was that non-employees (fans and gamers on the boards) had a better idea of the market than you or anyone else on the inside.

I'm also glad that you've realized WoW isn't the one year wonder you originally thought. Every MMO has postive and negative elements to study and learn for developers. I believe that in the end there will be positives that rise up from the chaff of Vanguard and are implemented more successfully down the road. However, for me the chaff is too thick to find the shiny parts below.

[Miele]

Call me naive or just dumb, I don't care, but I subbed for VG forums in late 2004, before they became the cesspool of late 2005 and beyond and as time went by, I got detached from VG direction more and more, despite having called all my friends back from their MMO hiatus or from other games to promote it.

Yes, I knew nothing of PR spin, it was the first time I followed a game development, I was used to play them and nothing else before, so I promoted the game based on a design doc, most of the guys didn't know about VG, some did:funny enough most of them play it now, me and few others don't.

Back then I was promised a game that was nothing like the one is out today, let me elaborate:

- I always thought the vast majority of the MMO population plays the game mostly adventuring, I still think it and I guess I'm quite right. I played some MMO and some variants of MMO ala Guild Wars, but the games I played longer are EQ (4 years) and WoW (just short of 2 years), they focused mainly on combat, in 2 very different ways, I tried at launch for a few months and I'm currently playing now EQ2, another different combat system, which has pros and cons, but doesn't play like WoW and doesn't play like EQ1. Key word: different.

- I was sold on VG for the "slow and strategic" combat system I was told at release, the first comment about it in public post by Oloh, during beta 1 or maybe beta 2, convinced me it could have been another fun and different approach at combat. If it's not yet clear, I'll just state it: combat is all I care about, the rest is there as a mini-game, as important as /gems was in EQ1, basically almost nothing for me.

- What I see now is a WoW system with few variations, a WoW/EQ2 quest system with few (none?) variations and a graphic that reminds me of EQ2 still looking worse for some reason I can't really define. I was thinking like 2 years in advance how awesome would have been to play a wizard as it was originally planned, 4 elemental spheres, combine them to get new effects like water and fire to cast "vapor" (?) spells, etc. All scrapped for fire-ice-arcane... the novelty... not!

- I saw nothing delivered, nothing at all resembling the old outdated original FAQs, sorry but I was deluded a lot. Point after point, every feature that would have made in the original FAQ was scrapped and trust me, I'm not talking of CR and exp loss, I'm talking about the basic premises behind the structure of the combat system, aka the backbone of a MMO.

I still wonder why everyone saw WoW as the huge phenomenon reinventing the wheel: it's an improved EQ1 from the base to almost the top and has a fanbase (Blizzard) behind that was freaking huge before the internet was such a widespread commodity for everyone (and rightfully so, since they always made great games).
It was obvious that a good game with a huge loyal fanbase could easily match Diablo2 and War3 sales (over 2,5 millions each) and with the PC available to everyone and the internet connectivity spreading out like crazy, plus an avid eastern market hungry for "more games with grinding" it could have doubled those 2,5 millions quite easily. Word of mouth made the rest.

Realize now that you pissed off a lot of potential players during late development, you pissed out a lot more with the buggy launch and you're pissing out even more if you "dumb down" the game (I don't like that definition, but it's the most used). Also you literally enraged a lot of "normal" customers, who couldn't ignore the vanboi-idiocy spreading out on the orginal VG boards. Praise the "Vision"! You maybe started doing damage control, but it was already quite late, you're still doing it now in a way.

I'm a BYOG (Bring Your Own Group/Guild) guy in MMOs, so I could care less about LFG tools and long travel distances, but I realize I'm in the minority. It's not my fault I'm surrounded by friends who play more than a full guild by themselves, so everytime I log in, no matter the game, I already have a group and a plan. I'm pissed by the fact I cannot and will likely not anymore play a game different from WoW from the very basic concepts behind combat. It could have been a huge selling point: different is good, even for the sake of being different. People like to try new things, I didn't shelve 294 days of /played on my EQ1 cleric to play a revamped EQ1 starting from scratch, nor I left my combined 90 days /played in WoW to play a WoW clone, I always moved to a different game and like me there are plenty around, just go read some random boards here and there.

When I walked few steps from the Crossroads to the Wailing Caves/Caverns in 2 different games, I grinned, but aside from few other dungeon idea and names, the 2 games I mention are pretty different as much as 2 fantasy games can be.

[Witoubo]

Originally Posted by teneran

When you gain a bit of maturity (if ever), you'll find that while tearing something down is easy .... building something is not so easy.

It seems to me that a lot of the folks who rip on things here, at one time tried to help build them up, and (effectively) got told to mind their own business. Hence the "I told you so" attitude and vitriol.