Nino...One of the upsides of VG.

[kcxiv]

Originally Posted by kohl

Awesome. I encourage you all to create a Fellowship, purchase and ride flying mounts around the nice huge world of Telon and maybe even partake in some caravan expeditions!

hmm.. ok?

[UnchainedAcolyte]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

Honestly, the best thing they could do at this point is increase the death penalty, make levelling slower, remove brokers and the idea of 'faster' travel. Call the game a niche game for the hardcore and keep your 50k or so whatever people that will play it for the next 5 years.

I think certain concessions made actually were constructive. A variable death penalty and the addition of regional brokers were two of those. While it may have alienated the most masochistic of the hardcore players, it softened the blow for casual players and allowed those of us who don't mind the occasional corpse run to do so, not to mention simplifying buying and selling.

I wish leveling were slower, due to content issues. The major issues I've seen have not been a lack of interest in POI's/dungeons or frustration with leveling but the ability/willingness by players to actually hunt and find them. I've tried to direct players to areas with quests/dungeons that were level-appropriate and I think if that were done more, players would be less concerned about their level and grow to appreciate a content-based focus.

[UnchainedAcolyte]

Originally Posted by kcxiv

hmm.. ok?

He's referring to the fact that at least two of those are not in-game yet, as in Fellowships and Caravans.

I haven't kept up on the flying mount issue. That's still some time away for me.

[kcxiv]

Originally Posted by UnchainedAcolyte

He's referring to the fact that at least two of those are not in-game yet, as in Fellowships and Caravans.

I haven't kept up on the flying mount issue. That's still some time away for me.

i know what he was refering too. Me and him just dont see eye to eye on a few things. It happens, when people have different opinions.

[rangoth]

Originally Posted by UnchainedAcolyte

I wish leveling were slower, due to content issues. The major issues I've seen have not been a lack of interest in POI's/dungeons or frustration with leveling but the ability/willingness by players to actually hunt and find them. I've tried to direct players to areas with quests/dungeons that were level-appropriate and I think if that were done more, players would be less concerned about their level and grow to appreciate a content-based focus.

That was one of my complaints also, but then I realized it's in every game

It just looks worse in VG cause the game is so damn huge and there are literally 50+ dungeons that are cool people don't go to because they dont have the best awards or not a high population there, not near a major city hub etc. a whole variable equation to it I imagine.

One thing I've noticed, which may not really be cause and effect, but it seems the most popular dungeons are the outdoor ones, since they are easier to get around and snoop in, or maybe because CR's were easier?

[Pirotess]

Originally Posted by Requiem

Here's an idea - what about a forum here on fohguild.org where developers, presidents, any sort of representative of these gaming companies can come to have valid discussion about a particular topic.

The forum would allow only these people to start threads, and they would be moderators with the full ability to delete and edit posts. I know it sounds oppressive, but I think it could work as long as nobody was allowed to abuse it, and I am willing to be the people's champion on that front.

We have something here on these forums that could potentially be a powerful tool for the progression of the genre. I'm only brainstorming for a way for these people to get what they are obviously seeking by posting here without the risk of a single person or a few multiple people taking away the possibility of any good coming from a thread. It's astounding how much disruption can be caused with so little effort. I'm open to ideas on the subject.

I think you'd probably have more success with it given your traffic base than we've had with a similar attempt over at Vanguard Spheres. I pretty much setup exactly what you described in this post with our Creator's Chamber forum a few months ago and it largely didnt get the traction we were hoping for.

[teneran]

Originally Posted by Neric

Yes it was, but everything he finally "realized" had been told to him before on this very board. He shouldn't act like this outcome totally surprised him and he was just unfortunate.

A lot of things are said and/or predicted on this board ... and much of it is garbage or never comes true. Some does. So .... congratulations on getting some things right?

Since you earlier claimed you could design a game twice as good as Vanguard for $30 million, can you give us an update on how that new game of yours is coming along? Got the financing yet? Or are you just going to stick to arm-chair, Monday morning, "i told you so" game design critiques? Maybe you should, I don't think you could handle being on the other side. But feel free to prove me wrong.

When you gain a bit of maturity (if ever), you'll find that while tearing something down is easy .... building something is not so easy.

[Faelor]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

WoW will bring in and keep non-MMO players. VG will not. VG will appeal to former EQ players and that's about it.

I play with a lot of old-school EQ vets, but I also play with a lot of people who have only played WoW and that is it. It may not be a common theme, but it is there. Quite a bit of hardcore WoW players are at least trying out Vanguard. It may not be hundreds of thousands, but they're there.

[kohl]

Originally Posted by UnchainedAcolyte

I wish leveling were slower, due to content issues. The major issues I've seen have not been a lack of interest in POI's/dungeons or frustration with leveling but the ability/willingness by players to actually hunt and find them. I've tried to direct players to areas with quests/dungeons that were level-appropriate and I think if that were done more, players would be less concerned about their level and grow to appreciate a content-based focus.

One unfortunate development is that already, you have vast barren areas and then people crowding into the few finished dungeons.

Just brainstorming here; what about a "buried treasure" type system that UO used. You find an item on an NPC; a map for example. It spawns buried treasure at some place in the world that you have to journey to and locate. Maybe along the way you get NPCs that spawn on you or even entire camps of NPCs (UO used to spawn not only mobs but structures that went along with those mobs).
This could segue way into the whole caravan thing.

[kohl]

Originally Posted by rangoth

That was one of my complaints also, but then I realized it's in every game

It just looks worse in VG cause the game is so damn huge and there are literally 50+ dungeons that are cool people don't go to because they dont have the best awards or not a high population there, not near a major city hub etc. a whole variable equation to it I imagine.

One thing I've noticed, which may not really be cause and effect, but it seems the most popular dungeons are the outdoor ones, since they are easier to get around and snoop in, or maybe because CR's were easier?

People said this would happen from the moment the game designs were discussed. This is how human nature works. If you want people to spread out in the world and not clump into the "best" spots, you need to give incentive. This could be bonus XP (maybe only bonus if you get deeper inside) or simply loot. Initial incentives such as Quests are great because if you send people to a place just once, they have a reason to go - even if just one time - and then maybe decide which places they do and don't like.

Also, the loot needs to be diverse enough so that you don't experience FBSS syndrome all over again. You also need a healthy server population.

[kcxiv]

Originally Posted by Faelor

I play with a lot of old-school EQ vets, but I also play with a lot of people who have only played WoW and that is it. It may not be a common theme, but it is there. Quite a bit of hardcore WoW players are at least trying out Vanguard. It may not be hundreds of thousands, but they're there.

Same here. Half my guild came over from WoW.

[rangoth]

Originally Posted by kohl

People said this would happen from the moment the game designs were discussed. This is how human nature works. If you want people to spread out in the world and not clump into the "best" spots, you need to give incentive. This could be bonus XP (maybe only bonus if you get deeper inside) or simply loot. Initial incentives such as Quests are great because if you send people to a place just once, they have a reason to go - even if just one time - and then maybe decide which places they do and don't like.

Also, the loot needs to be diverse enough so that you don't experience FBSS syndrome all over again. You also need a healthy server population.

See, I agree...and don't at the same time. Because in VG there are incentives, the problem as I see it however is that those incentives are fucking impossible to perfectly balance. I don't blame VG devs for this, it's just as you said human nature.

WoW evaded the bullet by having one major instance per level block, with some overlap. Then a slew of them at top level. So at top level you would goto them all because why not, though even the top level instances had some more frequented than others(by the way would love see numbers on total number of each instance run in an evening, not raid instances).

I think there are so many variable factors the balancing of incentives just can't be done I hope I'm wrong but that's how I see it.

The only way I believe full use could be obtained is by having so many people that everyone is forced to spread out.

As much as people bitch about the size of the world, it is truely awesome(sad I have to say this, but in my opinion). You don't just transition from desert to jungle through a canyon, its a real world, or the closest I have seen to it in an online video game. And to the people crying it's filled with nothing, I disagree. There are caves, camps, broken buildings and major dungeons littered throughout the world. But as stated above human nature just gathers them all in certain locations.

I'll go ahead and just be a bitch and list what I think the problems are:

1.) Proximity to a major city/training area
2.) Quests/Items/Rewards(all kinda the same)
3.) Level of difficulty
4.) Size
5.) Outside vs. inside. People seem to prefer outside. Perhaps it's easier to get around or easier to do CR's...I dunno, I prefer inside ones myself.
6.) Bugs, I would like to ignore this one because they shouldn't ever be the cause of going to or avoiding a place, but it's an issue as it stands
7.) Respawn times

There are probably more I can't conceptualize. I don't see how all of that can be balanced well and maintain some game itegrity(ie not putting a trainer or major city by every dungeon).

And without beating the dead horse much more I see the same problem with VG that I've seen with EQ years after release. As cool as these dungeons are, when new players come in, the inability to get a group will not only make leveling slow, boring and generally painful, none of these places will get used.

For god sake's someone copy FFXI's system of letting you switch jobs but keep your character.

[Aphextwin]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

VG will appeal to former EQ players and that's about it.

I have to disagree, in my opinion it doesn’t matter what MMO you are coming from as to whether VG will appeal to you or not.

WoW was my first ever MMO, I was a hardcore FPS guy with no interest in anything else for a few years, then by accident I stumbled across WoW and from that moment on played nothing else for almost 2 years, spending the better part of a year as a hardcore raid priest. By the time TBC came out I had already spent a few months prior looking for a new MMO, I had tried CoV, GW, EQ2 trial, LOTRO beta and nothing appealed to me or held my interest. I signed up for the VG closed beta and eventually got in on beta 4 and if you saw some of my earlier posts I couldn’t even get the game to run well enough to play but even then I felt like this game had something so I persevered and eventually the game began to run better and I was able to enjoy the game.

[Aradune Mithara]

Originally Posted by Aphextwin

I have to disagree, in my opinion it doesn’t matter what MMO you are coming from as to whether VG will appeal to you or not.

WoW was my first ever MMO, I was a hardcore FPS guy with no interest in anything else for a few years, then by accident I stumbled across WoW and from that moment on played nothing else for almost 2 years, spending the better part of a year as a hardcore raid priest. By the time TBC came out I had already spent a few months prior looking for a new MMO, I had tried CoV, GW, EQ2 trial, LOTRO beta and nothing appealed to me or held my interest. I signed up for the VG closed beta and eventually got in on beta 4 and if you saw some of my earlier posts I couldn’t even get the game to run well enough to play but even then I felt like this game had something so I persevered and eventually the game began to run better and I was able to enjoy the game.

How did you first hear about Vanguard?

[Aradune Mithara]

Originally Posted by kohl

People said this would happen from the moment the game designs were discussed. This is how human nature works. If you want people to spread out in the world and not clump into the "best" spots, you need to give incentive. This could be bonus XP (maybe only bonus if you get deeper inside) or simply loot. Initial incentives such as Quests are great because if you send people to a place just once, they have a reason to go - even if just one time - and then maybe decide which places they do and don't like.

Also, the loot needs to be diverse enough so that you don't experience FBSS syndrome all over again. You also need a healthy server population.

Well said.