Nino...One of the upsides of VG.

[Zehn - Vhex]

There isn't a whole lot you can do with combat really at this point. Physics engines haven't evolved enough for the stuff we'd really like to do (The day when I can cast my fire spell to cook a turkey, use the cooked turkey as bait to lure some goblins into a trap and then cut down a tree and have it land on top of the goblins will be a very happy day.)

The simple fact that I can't topple a statue or cause a cave-in without it being a pre-scripted event is what it holding back combat in almost all games at this point.

[Draegan]

"Next gen" combat will be when your weapon's actual physical location determines if you parry or block something, not just dice rolling and you get the worth "Parry" in your logs, and over your character's head.

[Miele]

Originally Posted by Kreugen

Most of what's new about VG combat comes from having seperate offensive and defensive targets. It is most notciable for healer classes, all of which have a number of abilities meant to be using offensively at the same time they are healing, making them far and away the most unique and interesting classes to play. For example, a level 12 cleric can debuff a mobs damage and gain mana with melee attacks.

Not to nitpick, but it's not THAT different from EQ2 approach with implied targeting (something that is toggable in LotrO too) and buffs like the inquisitor one that gives a chance to proc power taps from melee attacks (and you can even buff another char with that, while still gaining power for yourself). I personally find EQ2 healers with their AA trees the best healer implementation I've played.

So if setting defensive and offensive target is what makes the difference in VG, I'd say it's a pretty limited difference.
I liked instead the idea behind "casting while moving at reduced speed", which I find more unique.
In beta I played a sorcerer and it was quite fun to kite mobs, but at the same time overly trivial, just as in EQ1.

I think all devs from all games are hard pressed finding something really innovative, at least in a fantasy setting, that's concerning player abilities, because let's face it: till today EQ1 is still the game that gave players the most freedom of action. Exploitable? Yeah. Fun? Hell, yes!
Every other game started by forbidding players to do various things, including WoW, EQ2 (at launch it was even too much) and possibly others.

As of today, aside from the carpal tunnel syndrome it induced, I'm still looking for a MMO class that gives the same open-ended gameplay as the EQ1 bard (to mention the most blatant example), but I doubt I'll ever see it again.

[rinthea]

Adding from the defensive target/offensive target.

There are also, weaknesses, say a warrior uses an ability on a mob. This ability triggers the 'engraged' weakness. If a rogue does the right attack while this weakness is up, he will do more damage. Different classes provoke and exploit different weaknesses.

There is also the crit-finisher. After a crit, you have the opportunity to do finishers, moves that cant otherwise be done.

[Morderick]

Originally Posted by Miele

Not to nitpick, but it's not THAT different from EQ2 approach with implied targeting

Still, it is an improvement.

Offensive target is not implied target. If my defensive target is the Chanter and his target is a mezzed mob, if I nuke, it goes to my offensive target which is the unmezzes mob.

In EQ2, I target the chanter and nuke I break mez or have to switch to the unmezzed mob, or to someone who is the main assist.

[Mkopec1]

Originally Posted by Morderick

Still, it is an improvement.

Offensive target is not implied target. If my defensive target is the Chanter and his target is a mezzed mob, if I nuke, it goes to my offensive target which is the unmezzes mob.

In EQ2, I target the chanter and nuke I break mez or have to switch to the unmezzed mob, or to someone who is the main assist.

Yeah, its totally different concept.

But If I recall correctly AO had this back in 2001. So its still not new or revolutionary.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Miele

As of today, aside from the carpal tunnel syndrome it induced, I'm still looking for a MMO class that gives the same open-ended gameplay as the EQ1 bard (to mention the most blatant example), but I doubt I'll ever see it again.

You mean hit mana song and go afk? Let's be honest here, there wasn't that much to being a bard. Don't let that nostalgic appeal interfere with fact. For the first 5 years of EQ most classes hit one, maybe 2 buttons max. If you want to talk about how fun it is to exploit, every game has had their fair share and I fully agree. The biggest appeal to me of EQ was exploiting. But that was pretty much the only appeal. EQ classes were -incredibly simplistic- and for a long time combat in EQ was about as stupidly simple as you could get.

[Mkopec1]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

You mean hit mana song and go afk? Let's be honest here, there wasn't that much to being a bard. Don't let that nostalgic appeal interfere with fact. For the first 5 years of EQ most classes hit one, maybe 2 buttons max. If you want to talk about how fun it is to exploit, every game has had their fair share and I fully agree. The biggest appeal to me of EQ was exploiting. But that was pretty much the only appeal. EQ classes were -incredibly simplistic- and for a long time combat in EQ was about as stupidly simple as you could get.

Yes, but at that time simple was infinitely more complex because to the average gamer of that time all this shit was brand spankin new. Unless they played muds for years, but those were few between. So while the whole tank, healer, dps, pulling, kiting etc is painfully obvious today it was not back then.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

The biggest appeal to me of EQ was exploiting. But that was pretty much the only appeal. EQ classes were -incredibly simplistic- and for a long time combat in EQ was about as stupidly simple as you could get.

I think that is one facet that most people gloss over. EQ wasn't incredibly deep at it's core.. its the freedom you had that made it possible to do things totally unintended. Yeah, someone mentioned being able to kill a guard or whatever, but it goes deeper than that. From having a bard or rogue pull that named in c2 all the way to c1.. or a necro going into Chardok solo, snaring a named, training him to a tunnel, Levanting to zone in and running back to kill him alone. Shit like that just made the game more interesting than it really was.. and most of it wasn't intended by the developers.

Doing things you weren't supposed to made it more appealing than it really was. If you took the limitations that current games impose and put them in EQ, then I think the game would have just sucked hardcore ass.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Kiting was considered borderline exploiting by Verant and they tried to nerf it on more then one occasion. They actually managed to 'stealth nerf' it for a week once but they fucked up and it was causing all mobs in 'fleeing' mode to warp back to spawn point.

[Morderick]

List of aggroed mobs on the side is also interesting and help with picking out mobs.

[kcxiv]

Defensive targetting owns for tanks. You can just switch defensive targets mid fight. If my shaman is getting beat down, bam target and hit my ability, and i take aggro for 3-4 hits while my mez'er has a chance to mez or my shaman has a chance to heal himself.

[Gaereth]

That functionality is there in other games...most just don't know about it or use it. I always have a secondary focus target running in WOW, usually the healer, so I can keep an eye on them, deal with anything hitting them, etc, etc. Most folks don't know about it or use it...but its pretty damn nice.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Focus target is damn nice. I like onMouseOver targeting macro support as well. Being able to hold your mouse over a target and hit your macro and affect that target is -really- nice for tanking and healing because you don't have to keep switching main targets.

[Bongk]

Originally Posted by Kreugen

Most of what's new about VG combat comes from having seperate offensive and defensive targets. It is most notciable for healer classes, all of which have a number of abilities meant to be using offensively at the same time they are healing, making them far and away the most unique and interesting classes to play. For example, a level 12 cleric can debuff a mobs damage and gain mana with melee attacks.

This was done in AO 5 years ago.