Nino...One of the upsides of VG.

[UnchainedAcolyte]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

I think the main issue with that is that Ut (or whoever else) would give something specific (outdated or not) and the retort would be 'bullshit, you don't know what you are talking about' and that's it. No reasoning as to why it's bullshit, just that it is. Of course some people knew it was probably more true than false, but you still had a contingent of people that would stand up and flat-out deny it.

Which to me goes back to Gaereth's statement of the issue at times being more about people's ideologies and loyalties to the game or to their sense of integrity. Problem is, some of the stuff from an ethics standpoint shouldn't have been discussed beyond the conjecture of being outside beta. That was bad form on both sides of the debate.

I think the best decision (if I understand what happened correctly) was to invite Utnayan into beta to discuss it with the other testers and devs. That's where the most impact would take place. I still think his earlier calls for leaking beta info was improper, even if the point he was trying to support was correct. Similar, leaking part of the info sent in confidence from Nino to another player after he promised not to was just wrong.

Utnayan, you can be one of the better thinkers on the board, but also one of the worst fanatics.

[UnchainedAcolyte]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

And the only reason why I said that was because during that time every vanboi on the internet was saying only a few people who hated McQuaid were breaking NDA and all the others under NDA were playing it too much to come to the forums or didn't want to lose the account they had due to such a fun experience.

So I asked people to post what they thought was great about it.

And then I heard crickets.

And then the game shipped.

And it tanked so hard Webster called McQuaid to verify the new meaning of the word.

Thanks for making my point for me about the thinker/fanatic post.


People's idealism and overly high expectations should not have made them blind to the problems with the game.

Similarly, their polar opposites should not be completed blinded to the positives of the game either, though I know the response is likely going to be one of "What positives?" or "It's only your opinion".

I've acknowledged the weak points of the game, Ut. Care to show your potential for objectivity in acknowledging one positive?

[xregg]

I thought I would post some videos that I thought were decent first is player housing in Hi Def
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes - Player Housing HD

Vanguard: Saga of Heroes - Launch Event Coverage HD

this one isnt in HD but its a decent vid on diplomacy
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes - Developer Walkthrough - Diplomacy

[karuden]

Originally Posted by Gnome Eater

That's incredibly stupid even by your standards.

People who liked the game, or who thought the game was promising, probably took the NDA they signed and sent seriously. People who didn't like the game and who didn't give a shit about it railed against it.

Since the 'punishment' for talking more often than not was being banned from beta, the people who actually enjoyed their time in beta did not want to risk their account by breaking a legally binding contract (we can debate the legality of NDAs another time if you'd like).

And that is just more urban legend bullshit. Anyone could gen up a false account and spill the beans all they wanted. Hell do you really think that this is the name I use for most game logins? ROFLMAO.

I guess most of you mouth breathers think that you can't change an IP so that you can't be traced. Hell most of you are on DHCP servers from your internet providers and your IP's may routinely change by themselves. There is no way to track someone that has half a clue or uses dialup. So how the hell will say Sigil be able to ban someone for telling the truth and breaking NDA?

So many ignorant people and you prove it everytime you post.

Oh and NDA's are NOT legally binding contracts there skippy, nice try at another urban legend.

[Gnome Eater]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

I laughed at the game everytime I logged in since beta 3. After I signed it, I didn't say a thing until it was lifted. Of course by then, I didn't need to.

Hahahahaha what.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by UnchainedAcolyte

I've acknowledged the weak points of the game, Ut. Care to show your potential for objectivity in acknowledging one positive?

Sure.

I thought diplomacy was well handled - and even though some may say it is a gimmick, I think MMORPG's need more side games to make the world interesting. From gambling, to bar games, fishing, etc. Those types of mini games are easy to implement. Which leads into one of the ideas I had to form communities in MMORPG's while keeping instancing a viable option for certain types of scripted content.

One of Brad's design philosophies is inherently flawed. He thinks that instancing can downgrade a community and have a negative impact on the real world feel of the game. This would be true if it is used way too much. Ex: overland areas, cities, etc.

Instancing is now a neccessity in MMORPG's. There is no way, unless you have empty pockets and a design team of 12,000 people (which would be impossible to manage anyway) making all sorts of high level content with plenty of options. As seen with Vanguard, this was the approach they wanted to take and in the end they didn't even have a good majority of the 35+ content done. Even if they had, one place would be more popular than the other and severe camping would ensue.

What Brad should have done was use Diplomacy and go a step ahead. Design it to bring people together to build the community he wanted to make. Make diplomacy something used to interact with each other as well as just NPC's above and beyond where it is at now.

With the instancing that needs to be done, other ways need to be thought of outside the box to bring community back together. Mini games is one of those options that are easy to implement, fun to play, and bring people in an area. Would hardcore gamers take this approach? Who knows. Would casuals? You bet. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard people who just go online to chat with their friends and have fun playing with them. Here is what mini games do:

1> Levels of all ranges can participate without having to worry about being too high or too low of a level in a group.

2> You can make the world seem more alive overnight. Dwarf tossing contests, ale drinking contests, gambling, dart throwing... When creating mini games, it is important to keep the games themselves as side games FOR the genre the game is in. Example would be not having a texas hold em tournament going on in Kaladim. But that doesn't mean that some games of today cannot be altered to fit into a genre.

3> You can meet people. Chat. Have fun playing around.

4> Hold tournaments at certain times at certain locales.

This is only one way, of many, to bring people together to build a community without having to waste resources. Or worse, using the trial by fire technique which usually has a game being revamped 6 months before release.

Vanguard's biggest flaw is it is trying to solve the newest problems instancing has created by going back to the roots of DIKU Muds. That isn't going to work. Designers need to think outside of the box for new and fresh ideas to bring the community back together with the advent of instancing.

Mini games is one. I have about 65 others. Mini games are easy to implement, cost saving from a dollar standpoint, and when put together with the other 65 ideas I have, would create a higher level of community being built than before instancing was even invented.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Gnome Eater

Hahahahaha what.

After I signed the NDA, I didn't say anything until it was lifted. Notice where I stopped posting for a while?

Edit: And I am sorry I just about spit up my diet pepsi. Xregg is making me laugh. Out of no where he just injects a couple pics or videos. It's hilarious.

[Greyform]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

Sure.

I thought diplomacy was well handled - and even though some may say it is a gimmick, I think MMORPG's need more side games to make the world interesting. From gambling, to bar games, fishing, etc. Those types of mini games are easy to implement. Which leads into one of the ideas I had to form communities in MMORPG's while keeping instancing a viable option for certain types of scripted content.

One of Brad's design philosophies is inherently flawed. He thinks that instancing can downgrade a community and have a negative impact on the real world feel of the game. This would be true if it is used way too much. Ex: overland areas, cities, etc.

Instancing is now a neccessity in MMORPG's. There is no way, unless you have empty pockets and a design team of 12,000 people (which would be impossible to manage anyway) making all sorts of high level content with plenty of options. As seen with Vanguard, this was the approach they wanted to take and in the end they didn't even have a good majority of the 35+ content done. Even if they had, one place would be more popular than the other and severe camping would ensue.

What Brad should have done was use Diplomacy and go a step ahead. Design it to bring people together to build the community he wanted to make. Make diplomacy something used to interact with each other as well as just NPC's above and beyond where it is at now.

With the instancing that needs to be done, other ways need to be thought of outside the box to bring community back together. Mini games is one of those options that are easy to implement, fun to play, and bring people in an area. Would hardcore gamers take this approach? Who knows. Would casuals? You bet. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard people who just go online to chat with their friends and have fun playing with them. Here is what mini games do:

1> Levels of all ranges can participate without having to worry about being too high or too low of a level in a group.

2> You can make the world seem more alive overnight. Dwarf tossing contests, ale drinking contests, gambling, dart throwing... When creating mini games, it is important to keep the games themselves as side games FOR the genre the game is in. Example would be not having a texas hold em tournament going on in Kaladim. But that doesn't mean that some games of today cannot be altered to fit into a genre.

3> You can meet people. Chat. Have fun playing around.

4> Hold tournaments at certain times at certain locales.

This is only one way, of many, to bring people together to build a community without having to waste resources. Or worse, using the trial by fire technique which usually has a game being revamped 6 months before release.

Vanguard's biggest flaw is it is trying to solve the newest problems instancing has created by going back to the roots of DIKU Muds. That isn't going to work. Designers need to think outside of the box for new and fresh ideas to bring the community back together with the advent of instancing.

Mini games is one. I have about 65 others. Mini games are easy to implement, cost saving from a dollar standpoint, and when put together with the other 65 ideas I have, would create a higher level of community being built than before instancing was even invented.

Wow. UT that was one damn good post.

I don’t mean to sound condescending when I say that either, that is just one well thought out post.

I am going to disagree with you on instancing though. See this is where you can say that Brad’s vision has some real substance, as time goes by and the world is filled in, having one world where there is diverse content throughout will be what makes VG stand out.

[Kylax]

Originally Posted by Greyform

I am going to disagree with you on instancing though. See this is where you can say that Brad’s vision has some real substance, as time goes by and the world is filled in, having one world where there is diverse content throughout will be what makes VG stand out.

That content is meaningless without a player base to support it.

[Greyform]

Originally Posted by Kylax

That content is meaningless without a player base to support it.

and my TV won't work if I don't plug it in...

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Greyform

I am going to disagree with you on instancing though. See this is where you can say that Brad’s vision has some real substance, as time goes by and the world is filled in, having one world where there is diverse content throughout will be what makes VG stand out.

The real problem is one Ut mentioned. That content all has to not only be diverse, it has to be balanced. You can't have one 30-35 area that is significantly easier than another, otherwise people flock to the easy one. Just like you can't have one area that has better loot than another, or the same thing occurs. It's hard enough to balance a handful of simple things, how do you propose a small startup team find a way to balance 20 dungeons?

[Gnome Eater]

Lack of instancing makes for shitty PvE games. Instancing makes for shitty PvP games. I am only interested in Vanguard as a PvP game where you can fight for meaningful PvE objectives, where death has real meaning - like old time EQ PvP.

[Kylax]

Originally Posted by Greyform

and my TV won't work if I don't plug it in...

You are not going to buy a TV you know isn't going to "work as intended".

Sure guys, the pictures all fuzzy but stick with it! It will get better!

Edit: Analogies aside, Vanguard has room for improvement. When that improvement come is a whole different story.

[UnchainedAcolyte]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

Good stuff.

That's the Utnayan I enjoy reading.

Not that the rants shouldn't happen at times, but I like to see analysis, weighing in, and suggestions for solutions to the current problems and improvements for the game.

When I played EQII I was an advocate for mini games for many of the same reasons you state, and would love to see them implemented in VG.

Community interaction needs to be a heavy focus in MMO's, and returning to downtime and former reasons/bases that the first generation of games used just won't cut it with today's players. I liked some of the required interrelationships between classes in SW:G (doctors, dancers to solve wound issues and give reasons for players to congregate and visit towns pre-CU). While I think those should still exist, there are other possibilities.

Here's hoping PvP/group diplomacy won't be too far away.

[Greyform]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

The real problem is one Ut mentioned. That content all has to not only be diverse, it has to be balanced. You can't have one 30-35 area that is significantly easier than another, otherwise people flock to the easy one. Just like you can't have one area that has better loot than another, or the same thing occurs. It's hard enough to balance a handful of simple things, how do you propose a small startup team find a way to balance 20 dungeons?

I don't believe they have to be balanced to the nth degree they just have to be close enough and different enough. So that it offers a different challenge.

The thing with instancing I don’t care for is when a dungeon reaches farm status and it is the same old same old every night until everyone has whatever it is that dungeon drops.

Diversity, is absolutely going to be a challenge, but in the long run the payoff is giving players more options instead of each nights game play mirroring the previous nights.