Nino...One of the upsides of VG.

[Cuppycake]

Originally Posted by Nairbog

Frankly though, the starting areas depending on where you go have some of the weaker content in Vanguard.

And unfortunately, in all games across the board, that is the WORST part of the game to have weak spots. You're going to have a lot of bad reviews of a game if the starting areas are hit or miss - because a lot of people (myself included) don't want to struggle through playing something mediocre until they can get to something good.

Originally Posted by Nairbog

I'm curious since you got the highest level with your bard, what places did you go to with her?

I can't remember the names of places because it was a month ago and it just wasn't all that memorable. I will tell you that I didn't do any instancing and I did very little with a group. It was mostly all solo or duo, and usually because I couldn't find anyone to stay grouped for long.

Originally Posted by Nairbog

what exactly is it about the VG starting areas that are any different from other popular MMO's like WoW?

That's a question I can't answer. Its gotta be something though, because I'm pretty sure WoW has had a good retention rate. It could be the storyline/lore...which I thought was lacking in almost every starting city I tried in VG. I think its just a combination of things though. When I logged in this was my thought process at first:

"Holy shit stutter, okay gotta log out and edit my .ini file and get some new drivers and defrag before I'll try again."
"Well, its a little better. I'll try to deal with this and check the game out some."
"Man, my character sure is ugly. Too bad I had to give up after three hours of making her try to look pretty and somewhat unique."
"Wow, those trees might give me a seizure, but they're pretty."
"Hmm, I wonder why I was just sent to kill these deer."
"Aw shit, I'm stuck. /stuck "
"This music in the game is fucking fabulous, props Nino."
"I want to tell my guild how awesome the music is. Oh weird, for some reason I can't connect with the chat server."
"Okay, well time to go back and play the fun polished high fantasy game with awesome lore that gives me nostagia goosebumps *cough* EQ2 *cough*"

=)

[Hachima]

Have fun back on EQ2, where you have less that 2 days /played on your character and haven't logged in for almost 3 weeks now...

[Seths]

Originally Posted by The Hiram Key

I am not really sure what you are getting at here, if people try something and don't like it, they tend to want to "warn" others so they don't have the same poor experience as they did.

How they handle that communication varies from person to person, but I don't think judging how much time they spent "suffering" as an indicator of the validity of their statements really makes any sense.

That was my point and it really was an open question. How much time does someone have to invest before you can actually take their word as evidence?
By no means do I take blogs as evidence and didn't mean to imply that I did.

But if I were to go out today, having never tried before, and begin to Snowboard I would wager that the vast majority of my time would be spent on my ass, or falling down in some fashion with very little fun factor in the beginning. I would have to spend a while learning the sport and progressing before I was able to do all the really fun stuff.

For some people the threshold is low, and if something doesn't grab their attention right off the bat then it's already a lost cause. Others have more staying power and are able to build up to that fun factor.

I would think that mmorpg's are much like the latter. If everything were instantly available to the lvl 1 what point would there be in going forward? If all the cool stuff was there within 2 feet of the initial spawn location why go anywhere else? I think that it is something that has to be that way in MMOG's if they want to have any real sort of longevity.

Don't get me wrong I am by no means arguing that VG is this end all be all game. It is far, far, far from perfect. But for me at least the fun factor really is there and it grows each level as I get to do new things and go new places.

[Cuppycake]

Originally Posted by Hachima

Have fun back on EQ2, where you have less that 2 days /played on your character and haven't logged in for almost 3 weeks now...

As I've stated, I'm in the process of moving. I haven't played ANYTHING in 3 weeks. I don't yet have my PC, or a TV...shit I don't even have a bed here yet =/ AND FYI, I have more than one EQ2 character and on more than one server.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Hachima

Have fun back on EQ2, where you have less that 2 days /played on your character and haven't logged in for almost 3 weeks now...

So this is a valid response to someone who didn't like Vanguard and expressed it as civilly as possible?

[kcxiv]

Originally Posted by dechire

At what level should a game be fun? Cuz i'm going to have to go with Level 1.

I have never had fun in a mmo at level 1. Not even when i started EQ which i played for 6 years.

I am waiting for a MMO that starts out fun at level 1. Once that happens, i am in. I dont care who makes the game.

[dechire]

Originally Posted by Slick Willey

You obviously don't understand The Vision -- fun can't be acquired at level 1, but instead is a "carrot" that keeps you playing to reach the higher levels when the fun starts. It makes the "fun" more meaningful because you had to work to get it instead of getting it handed to you on a silver-platter like WoW and its instant-gratification model.

Your right, what was I thinking?

[Hachima]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

So this is a valid response to someone who didn't like Vanguard and expressed it as civilly as possible?

No but I do see it as coming from someone that can't stick to any one thing in particular and gives up easy. If all I saw of a MMO was lvl 1-20 when the max is 50+ I would probably thing the game wasn't that interesting too.

[Slick Willey]

Originally Posted by kcxiv

I have never had fun in a mmo at level 1. Not even when i started EQ which i played for 6 years.

I had fun at level 1 in . . . WoW . The whole 45 seconds I was level 1 ROFL! Seriously though, its probably different for different people, but a LOT of people I know found WoW *fun* right from the start. In fact, that was one the strong points lauded about the game -- it got the player "hooked" right from the start.

EQ was fun for me levels 1-5 just because it was my first MMORPG and I was tripping out that I was playing a game with all these real life people simultaneously playing around me.

[r.gun]

Originally Posted by Slick Willey

EQ was fun for me levels 1-5 just because it was my first MMORPG and I was tripping out that I was playing a game with all these real life people simultaneously playing around me.

And that's the reason WoW from 1 - 5 is fun for *most* people, too. I didn't think 1 - 5 in WoW was fun the first time, nor did I think it was fun the thirtieth time.

[Nairbog]

maybe you don't remember what areas the bard went to because it never existed? I think you forgot your claim about the bard when you made your post about your Raki and Dark Elf. Seems weird that you would start out with "I played a Raki psionicist" instead of your highest level character. You made it to level 8 and are making judgments on the entire game.

[Nairbog]

Originally Posted by r.gun

And that's the reason WoW from 1 - 5 is fun for *most* people, too. I didn't think 1 - 5 in WoW was fun the first time, nor did I think it was fun the thirtieth time.

QFT, getting "hooked" by an MMO when you're a veteran just takes more time IMO. I would bet that Vanguard has a higher percentage of players who have already played other MMO's than WoW by a very large margin.

[Gaereth]

For most people the hook has to come in the first hour, or 2 at the most, of playing a game. There has to be something that makes them want to come back and continue the journey.

For those that it may take quite a while to get to something that fully engages you....thats just goofy. That would be akin to saying "The food at that place wasn't very good....lets come back tomorrow!!" or "Wow...your kinda a stanky wench, but come back tomorrow and maybe you might have taken a shower this time so I can enjoy you without the smell of fish ass".

EQ hooked me immediately because the other people running around were like REAL!!! and they were moving and OMG that is so cool. It have very little to do with how the game looked and played but at the time it didn't matter because look at these other people.

Eve hooked me like a mother the first time I played it because I could see all this stuff and I wanted to learn about it. I wanted to engage with it and figure it out because I could see all these amazing options that I knew nothing about.

WOW hooked me with the cut scene and the simplicity of getting started. I could actually just start playing the game and enjoy myself in a nice looking world.

That first hour is hugely important to playing any game. If you don't get hooked with that then you won't last long. This doesn't count those that have invested in the game prior to actually playing it. People that participate on the forums, debate things like mad, etc, etc, will tend to have a longer waiting period before fun HAS TO commence because they have already invested so much in the game being fun and they almost have to play it to find that fun...someplace...anyplace. They also have a much higher tolerance for crap because of said investment as well.

[Nairbog]

I disagree and I think it's silly to compare an MMO to meals or bodily odors. I didn't get hooked by Vanguard until I started to see my class "bloom" so to speak, started to get a feel for how well equipment can improve my character (a big hook), and after I explored enough to see how much content I have ahead of me. I don't see how those can be conveyed in the first hour, especially the first one. I guess you could give classes all their class defining skills at level 1 but that would take a lot of the fun out of leveling, I don't mind the fact that MMO's are based on carrots, because carrots taste good.

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Nairbog

You made it to level 8 and are making judgments on the entire game.

If a game doesn't have that "hook" for a particular player right from the start, then the game is a failure for that player.

Pick any newbie area in WoW. Say that any one of them didn't have that hook right away, and its quite likely that many players will tell you you're crazy. I heard many players complain about the later parts of the game, and even the newbie areas beyond thier first pass. But never have I heard of ANY player claiming thier initial experience in the game was anything short of a total blast.

Thats the experience I initially had in WoW. And EQ, AO, EQ2, L2, and a whole slew of other games i've played. And then there were quite a few where I couldn't stomach getting to level 2. To say that a player isn't capable of knowing if the game is fun for them right from the start, is simply naive. Players CAN and DO know if they're having fun or not. It doesn't matter if its at level 5, 10, or 50.

Fun is the main objective of every game. And any game that makes a player "work" for that fun, is an instant failure. That said, fun is a very subjective thing thats measure on a per-player basis. What one player may find fun, a hundred others might find a total bore, and vice-versa.

Which is why i'll never understand the reasoning behind intentionally creating a "niche" game. Its like saying "hey! we're building this great game. But only this particular type of player is going to find it fun".