Nino...One of the upsides of VG.

[Drave]

In reference to EQ's older, high-end content, people played to hang with their friends, and for the challenge of the content, not to debug it.

When things were broken, someone had to say something (batphone a dev) just to be able to do what they wanted to do in the first place: play the game. (Anyone that beat their head against the first few versions of the Rathe council will attest to this.)

The eventual evolution of this, is that guilds are openly asked to beta-test high-end raid content (and in WoW's case, it's all completely above board, hats to Tigole and friends), because the only way to debug/trouble-shoot raid content, in the dev-cycle, requires this (or is it just cheaper?)

I do agree Bog, that we are the customer, we just provide one helluva feedback.

[Zehn - Vhex]

You know what the problem is? The problem is far too many psychology-style, "How does this make you feel?" threads. This thread and the VG nerd rage thread are just endless cycles of "I think that..." and "I feel..." and it's stupid. It has no business being any place but the rickshaw.

Whining about the lack of substance and contribution people make in threads like this one and the VG nerd thread is just asinine. Or even shit like the "How would you make VG better?" and "VG suggestions!" threads. I mean that shit is just giving people carte blanche to bitch and moan. Those kind of things are further examples of 'legitimate' topics that need to be rickshawed anyways.

The blame is really split 4 ways. The biggest blame is with that asscock Brad for not having his own goddamn forums. Way to push your shit on us asshole. Then you have Utnayan and his detractors causing a big ruckus. It's a circular argument as to which causes the more spam, Utnayan for being redundant or Duppin and co. for being 5x redundant. Throwing "btw, hellz yah to nino!" as if it validates your post is retarded bullshit everyone sees through.

The minor remainder of fault lies with the mods and the posters. This thread should have been rickshawed right off the bat. You'd take flack from posters, sure. But man fucking up or move over and let someone else take the hate. Just because something is rickshawed doesn't mean you can't still wax pseudo-intellectual about it. It just means it has nothing to fucking do with video games.

This thread has nothing to do with games. It has everything to do with peoples big blubbery vagina's and their need to piss and moan.

Anyways...

[Maxxius]

After 28 pages, what was the point of this thread again? Goes back to Nino's original post, just make a " I hate you VG" thread, sticky it and let anyone enter it at their own risk heheh.

[Duppin]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

It's a circular argument as to which causes the more spam, Utnayan for being redundant or Duppin and co. for being 5x redundant. Throwing "btw, hellz yah to nino!" as if it validates your post is retarded bullshit everyone sees through.

It's ironic that you whine about big blubbery vaginas and yet you don't miss a single opportunity to be a big weeping vagina about me yourself in every thread.

Your crush on me is no longer amusing, it's just creepy now.

[Tyen]

Nino is doing the job that public relations should be doing. If information was being relayed to the customer in other ways than Nino wouldn't be compelled to do so. Thats pretty much what I'm seeing.

Summary
The only people who are staying in contact with the community and letting them know whats going on is friends of certain communities.

The Customer Service/Public Relations dept. is doing terrible at what they should be doing.

People want Offical Forums so that Sigil is FORCED to stay in contact with us, the community and consumer.

I'm thinking the whole entire Vanguard community would like a response on how Sigil's PR department is NOT pro-active and more re-active. If you aren't pro-active with the community than all you are doing is re-acting to the shitstorm caused by people not knowing wtf is going on.

[Cuppycake]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

It has everything to do with peoples big blubbery vagina's

Pics or it didn't happen. =)~

[kasey]

I am so tired of hearing of Ut's evil deeds. Get a fucking different hobby you stupid annoying retards for fucking sake. Utnayaen here Utnayaen there hater a here hater b there BLAH BLAH BLAH shut up.

Noone of you critics and i mean nobody of you will ever achieve ANY merit out of of attacking UT and co relentlessly. All you people have managed in the past 2 years (? like i pay attention to the exact timespan ) is long derailments, annoying flamefests and generally a huge losss in board quality. Just ignore them. Was there EVER any situation where one of the hard-on flamers said "ok you are wrong, i wont try to attack game xy anymore because i am a psycho. Yepee i am cured, thanks internet!" and followed trough?

I could argue that the flies which are attracted by shit are worse then the shit itself.You haters are the flies. It doesnt matter if you are right or wrong at all, all that matters are that you two sides are a huge detriment to my enjoyment of fohguild. Stfu already.

[Erronius]

I just cannot believe this thread; it's simply another indication of what is wrong.

UT had good points, and observations, but that was buried under a great deal of angry posts, flames and beating of dead horses. Others also had good points, but jumped onto the VG criticism bandwagon. Many were correct in their thinking, but they too often went overboard. What started out as valid, sometimes even brilliant, observations turned into a medley of angst and fury.

This is where the hypocrisy starts:

People are being critical of UT and others in the same way that UT and co. were being critical of VG. Much like UT, these people have good points and observations - yet just like UT, they are burying their points under a great deal of angry posts, flames, and of course, the beating of the Utnayan dead horse. Correct in their thinking, but just like the people they are attacking...going overboard. What started out as valid criticism of UT, and others, has now turned into a medley of angst and fury, just in this thread alone.

The very people having fucking hissy fits and flaming Utnayan, were many of those that hated on Utnayan for doing the same damn thing to Brad and VG.

It isn't about facts either; this thread has a gazillion pages of people arguing over the Nino email, hashing and rehashing it over and over and over, far beyond the point that it should have been.

Apparantly it is ok to flame, attack, and go apeshit on Ut, THK, Neric and others, yet Ut, THK and Neric aren't allowed to to do that? People are expecting, wanting, them to be banned for behaving that way, yet it's ok to do as long as it is directed AT them?

It gave me a headache to read through this post and see people pull out the 'bandwagon' card and throw it at UT for being critical of VG, when people are jumping on the seperate (but equally ridiculous) anti-UT bandwagon, and beating their own dead horse.

I'm not even defending Ut and others here. It is simply the fact that people are being fucking hypocrites attacking UT for his behavior, by attacking him in the same way and measure. This thread has become yet another crapfest of enormous proportions.

[Old Man Potter]

I have to wonder at the motivations of some of the devs that post here on behalf of their respective games; there is very little to be gained by posting here and everything to lose. Those that live by the sword will die by the sword. Any dev that thinks their time is better spent here trying to gain some flimsy notion of "street cred" rather then focusing their energies working on their MMO is showing a serious lapse in judgement. There are hundreds of devs in the MMO industry -- thankfully most have enough maturity not to post here. Luckily enough for you and me they are most likely working right now on making your MMO as good and engaging as possible.

I'd like to ask the devs that still post here: Given the hardcore nature of the demographic that posts here, just what are you trying to achieve by doing this? Do you spend equal time with other segments of your playerbase such as casual gamers, tradeskillers, PVPers and role-players?

Let's be honest, the halcyon days of these forums are long over. Even Furor grew up, learned to control his foul mouth, got a haircut and got a real job. Now he doesn't have to shoot his mouth off; instead his work in WoW does the talking for him. And notice, he nor will anyone at Blizzard waste their time posting here.

Still, for a while people like Furor, Lum, Moorgard and others tried to improve MMO's and keep the companies that made them accountable. Those guys were the Ralph Nader's of the MMO world. The gave credibility and voice to the MMO community. Eventually they figured out that if you truly want to effect change in the video game industry you have to work from within rather then just talk.

People flocked to forums like these because there was the feeling that things could change and get better. People that posted there cared about the MMO's that they spent their valuable time in which made forums like these important. We all felt a sense of ownership of the virtual worlds we would freqent. Sadly, these days the FoH boards are nothing more then sheer amusement for people with nothing better to do then flame, troll, spew and curse. Trying to find intelligent, insightful debate on these boards is harder then finding the Ancient Cyclops alive in South Ro on a Friday night.

Are these forums worth saving? Definately. I think the MMO world still needs a place where people can debate and discuss topics free from the influence of the community rep spin-doctors and corporate marketing machine that has taken over the so-called journalism of gaming print magazines. The owners of this board need to demonstrate some leadership by enforcing strict moderation to reduce the damage done by the flamers, spewers and other assorted malcontents that are using these forums for their own twisted agendas. The alternative is anarchy and chaos, which is exactly what we have now.

[boy-]

Originally Posted by Old Man Potter

I have to wonder at the motivations of some of the devs that post here on behalf of their respective games; there is very little to be gained by posting here and everything to lose.

Do not forget the 3 new threads that Brad created over a period of 2 hours just to show screenshots of 3 different continents. I think it is rather apparent what Brad tried to gain from posting here, and I also think this is what fostered much of the backlash.

[Gallenite]

Originally Posted by Old Man Potter

I'd like to ask the devs that still post here: Given the hardcore nature of the demographic that posts here, just what are you trying to achieve by doing this? Do you spend equal time with other segments of your playerbase such as casual gamers, tradeskillers, PVPers and role-players?

Glad to answer from my own point of view.

I don't think I've ever initiated a new thread here. I may have, but it would be the rare exception.

Like many devs, on my own time I occasionally surf boards and blogs. (e.g. 1am on a monday night)

During my reading, if I happen to find someone asking something about the game I'm working on, whether it's here or someone's three-reader blog, if I know the answer I'll occasionally reply if I have a minute or drop a PM or my email address to the author.

I don't do it with any intent beyond that in mind. Talking about it in terms of segments of the audience doesn't really apply. I'll talk to whichever part of the audience happens to be in the corner of the web that I found interesting while not at work.

We're fortunate to be in a line of work where there's someone out there interested in what it is we're doing. I don't feel compelled to answer while off the clock, but it seems like the right thing to do if it's not a gigantic imposition.

The one exception is that I try to not post in any thread started by a developer of a different game, unless the topic isn't specific to their game, just out of what feels like should be professional courtesy. Sometimes presence alone is enough to be a distraction, and that doesn't seem right.

I think it's just a personality thing. When I play MMOs, I'm also the guy who responds in guild to "Where's (Mob X)" or "What are the mats for (Recipe Y)" if I happen to know them, too, if the answer'll help someone out.

- Scott

(edit: punctuation)

[role]

I don't think this forum can have it both ways. Either parties involved in game design and development will post here (we encourage their interaction by the audience, welcome, and quality of response) or they will not (we do the opposites).

If they do post here it will be for whatever interests they have (game promotion, soliciting feedback, ego, being helpful, sharing the love of their work; to name a few). This is fine as part of our agreement is to be honest with what we think. No, I'm not talking about shill posts. I am referring to engaging posts by principals.

We are here because we have a passion for this. I think that and the collective experience of the posters here can be an epic resource for those involved in making these sorts of games. The problem is that this forum can tend to wildly unnecessary ad hominem, which is unfortunate to the extent of being crippling.

[Miele]

Originally Posted by Old Man Potter

I have to wonder at the motivations of some of the devs that post here on behalf of their respective games; there is very little to be gained by posting here and everything to lose. Those that live by the sword will die by the sword. Any dev that thinks their time is better spent here trying to gain some flimsy notion of "street cred" rather then focusing their energies working on their MMO is showing a serious lapse in judgement. There are hundreds of devs in the MMO industry -- thankfully most have enough maturity not to post here. Luckily enough for you and me they are most likely working right now on making your MMO as good and engaging as possible.

Well, when I read Gallenite's posts, they didn't look at all like commercials. Even Smed posts (something I think he claimed doing at home on his free time) didn't smell of commercial for what I can remember, I distinctly remember one that was also pretty amusing (had to do with donuts?).

Probably, what irked people is that Brad posted here with threads that were as you'd expect a commercial ad to be, evading at the same time other questions that were posed to him (talking pre-launch here), for reasons that belonged to him (right or wrong this could have been).

As Kendrick pointed out, devs that really love making games have dreams about them (and I suppose Brad is no different) and then they have to face reality after x years of production, while we gamers can just shrug it off and go buy something else if we don't like what they do.
As I already pointed out, I think attacking someone else job like it happened here is very insulting for those who were there doing the job. It may have had a good or bad outcome, but it's still people who work to their best and for that alone they should be respected and treated with some decency. Instead the average comment you hear on the internet about a developer is "that dumb fucktard". I understand now why when someone who worked in the industry leaves it has a feeling of relief.

People that don't like a game, have every right to say so, but going on a jihad vs. this or that developer, producer, CEO, etc. is as retarded as it can be something found on the internet, more retarded than the shit you find in the funny picture thread. You aren't fighting a dictatorship, you aren't fighting for human rights nor for freedom of speech and not even to save the poor customers from a monopoly they can't defend against. We vote with our wallet on these products, we have the choice to not buy them (unlike for other things).

Respect people and you'll be respected in return.

Fuck, I did another long post. Peace.

[blumblum]

Blah...
The only thing that seems relevant to me, is to know weither Nino really got into trouble yesterday (did he got a warning, can he still post here), because having people like him posting "freely" here is what makes this board special.
That's what the OP had in mind when he posted this thread.
28 pages to guess if UT was an ass or not is useless, as it's the easiest Jeopardy question ever (aka "Who got the ass award 2007 on the FOH board ?")

[Neric]

That's an amazing piece of artwork by Laerazi. Despite the simplicity of the characters, he still managed to express a lot with them. In a way, it's the exact opposite of Vanguard.