Vanguard Patch Notes Update #1 - Page 6

Kolle · 03-07-2007, 04:27 PM

I'm getting sick of the stuff Blizzard pulls. WoW is obviously goin down the drain here with these latest changes. They've always been so stupid about that kinda stuff. I mean, I'm not playing anymore and i'm not giving them my money, but they should listen to my bitching anyways. True, I really don't know what the fuck is going on since I don't play, but that doesn't mean anything I've said carries less weight.

Mkopec1 · 03-07-2007, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kraks

Nino,

hate to tell you, but the DPS nerfs were seriously much larger than they should have been on melee classes. Whether those abilities were working as intended or not, the DPS did seemed balanced as it was, and now its completely useless to have more melee in a group than the tank.

I don't want to quit a game with this much potential, but if this stays I will have no other option.

Yeah, from what I have seen in grouping situations is the disparity betwen mele and caster DPS. Its hard to tell the diffrence when a monk or ranger leave the group. But when a sorc or a drood leaves you can definitely tell the diffrence. And they just decreased it even more?
LOL

Vaxxx · 03-07-2007, 04:34 PM

I would first like to say that I appreciate Nino and other Devs for posting here. I realize that they can only do/say so much.

However there are two issues that dumbfound me. The first is fixing broken mechanics or "nerfs" the second is patch notes.

In regards to fixing things, I see two large problems, one is that you may say a mechanic is broken and needs to be fixed but to a player that bought the game on day one and had said mechanic, and no one told him it was broken, what do you expect him to say when you come along after a month or so and change it, generally downwards. Of course people will scream. It may be a matter of semantics but both sides are right.

A better solution is to let players know before hand that certain mechanics are not working as intended and will be fixed at some time. Be upfront so that when you get around to it people are ready instead of looking like you pull off kneejerk reactions all the time.

In terms of patch notes, yes I realize how many different people are working on different things and the amount of information flowing around is staggering but really, get the guy to put the information together and if it's a big patch have a meeting and make sure that it's right. Secondly be clear and concise in the patch notes. It really seems like you guys and other companies try and just slide stuff through.

You must know by know that will never be acceptable. People instantly break things apart, they parse things, rumors fly and next thing you know people are up in arms and threatening to quit the game.

By first off letting the community know what mechanics will be getting an overhaul whether for good or for bad, people can digest it and be ready, then when the changes happen, be very open and let people know exactly what is going on.

I read through those patch notes a few times and really it's sad, a huge change to peoples damage gets the same line space as some crappy change to a short sword graphic. Thats not right and I have little sympathy for you guys when stuff like this happens. I love your game but thats just shoddy Community Relations.

The final thing, you guys always have to balance (nerf) I get that. But really for every nerf that you guys implement you should also fix a broken ability that isn't working the other way.

To summarize,
Be open with the players on what is a priority and what kind of fix will happen either god or bad.

If you have to fix something downwards make sure you also fix things that need fixing upwards.

Have clear, detailed patch notes, that reduce hysteria and treat the players like they are somewhat intelligent. Trying to slide things through has been proven over and over to just cause problems.

I really enjoy the game, I feel that it is progressing in a good direction, but you guys really need to get this stuff straightened out and fast.

Vaxx

Korith · 03-07-2007, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Kraks
Nino,

hate to tell you, but the DPS nerfs were seriously much larger than they should have been on melee classes. Whether those abilities were working as intended or not, the DPS did seemed balanced as it was, and now its completely useless to have more melee in a group than the tank.

I don't want to quit a game with this much potential, but if this stays I will have no other option.

Yeah I'm gonna disagree my 26 warrior can't even hold agro anymore. I got booted from a group earlier because "I can't tank". Funny Ive gotten compliments from just about every group I've been in prior to this wonderful update about how well I keep agro and manage mobs. I'm gonna take a few days off and hope that my warrior will once again be able to hold agro, since ITS HIS ONLY FUCKING UTILITY.

Araxen · 03-07-2007, 04:43 PM

I'm having EQ1 nightmares all over again. How hard is it get this shit straight on pach days? If Blizzard can nail their shit down on the first MMO. Brad and Co should be able to nail down this shit on their 2nd MMO.

Don't get me wrong Blizzard has had their share of bugs on patch days, but nothing on what Brad and Co can pump out.

Faltigoth · 03-07-2007, 04:51 PM

l would love to be a fly on the wall during the After Action Review (or whatever they call such things in the software industry) at Sigil HQs tomorrow, heh. I imagine heads are going to roll. Somebody record that shit with a cellphone and put it on YouTube or something.

That being said, my personal favorite shit that's screwed up is the server status message on the launcher that is only right when it feels like being right and generally doesn't reflect a damn thing about the reality of server availability.

QueefMaker · 03-07-2007, 04:52 PM

And for cyring out loud, update the patch notes you get when you launch the game. Nothing like seeing "All Servers Up", but not being able to log on and having to come here to find out what the hell is going on.

QueefMaker · 03-07-2007, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faltigoth

That being said, my personal favorite shit that's screwed up is the server status message on the launcher that is only right when it feels like being right and generally doesn't reflect a damn thing about the reality of server availability.

Beat me by a few sec's. Grats to you

Darus Grey · 03-07-2007, 04:54 PM

Once again I'm reminded why I *quit* adventuring until this shit gets fixed.

That said...

Buying: T5 weaponsmith upgrade recipe. PST

Alarion · 03-07-2007, 05:02 PM

ya know, it's kind of depressing, being stuck in a dead end job writing ordnance software for the US Navy when I would kill to get into the game dev industry - and then I read about how patch notes are handled. I was looking at Sigil's jobs page today. I think you guys need to add a position for "some nazi motherfucker who can whip our QA and testing dept into shape"

meh.

Moorgard Mobhunter · 03-07-2007, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaxxx

In terms of patch notes, yes I realize how many different people are working on different things and the amount of information flowing around is staggering but really, get the guy to put the information together and if it's a big patch have a meeting and make sure that it's right. Secondly be clear and concise in the patch notes. It really seems like you guys and other companies try and just slide stuff through.

I agree that an automated method of collecting changelist data is preferable over doing it manually. As someone who did hundreds of patch notes manually, trust me when I say I would have gladly severed limbs if it meant I didn't have to sift through folder after folder of release notes myself.

However, patch notes are only as good as the original explanation given by the people making the changes. While some devs put great thought and effort into detailing every last change they make, others are very general or much less complete. I spent countless hours translating devspeak into plain English so that the patch notes were as thorough and clear as possible.

But again, it's a case of garbage in, garbage out. A coder might make some change and explain the details of the change but not the implications -- two very different things. Many times in the course of investigating a seemingly mundane release note I would stumble upon a "holy shit!" change that needed to be explained in great detail.

So yeah, that's why patch notes can seem deceptive. A dev makes a checkin with the text "Adjusted ranger DPS abilities to be more consistent," which could mean that a dozen abilities got nerfed, boosted, or changed completely. And if you don't track down every single change, somebody on the message board will do it and probably make it sound ten times more severe than it actually is.

Despite the insistence from leads that team members provide clear release notes, sometimes it just doesn't work out that way. That doesn't make them bad developers; some people are just better at communicating than others.

That leaves some poor stooge (typically either a community manager or some kind of producer) to do the best they can while resisting the urge to pull out all their hair. While I enjoyed putting together patch notes for the most part, it's a time-consuming job that nobody appreciates when it's done right and serves as grounds for lynching when there's a problem.

In those cases of incorrect or incomplete data being provided, it's highly doubtful anyone is trying to lie about something. More likely it's a case of something getting misinterpreted in the process. It's not like players won't figure out what all the changes are, so trying to lie about them would be stupid anyway.

The other thing to keep in mind is that patch notes aren't just written with the hardcore ubergeek in mind; they're also supposed to summarize recent changes for the casual person who just logged in for the first time all month. While providing complex formulae and detailed breakdowns would appeal to the former, the latter is every bit as much the target audience. Satisfying both needs is a real challenge.

My ultimate revenge on those who go on tirades about patch notes would be to hire them and make them write patch notes. I'm all about sharing the pain.

Ameraves Loyalheart · 03-07-2007, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythas

Additionally, If i proximity agro a mob the abom takes at least 2 - 3 hits to pull it off me. This i don't understand as 1 dmg should pull it off having not used any abilites / done any damage to the mob.

Actually this is something we found to be just odd with aggro. It seems that whoever establishes aggro first, whether it be damage, or proxy aggro, it takes a bit to take that aggro away. We figured it out when we were doing some AEing to get our tanks faction up. He could run around and proxy aggro a whole bunch of mobs, and literally stand there and do nothing while we would AE them down, and maintain aggro on most of them. Go figure.

Nino, I think it is awesome how you guys come here and post. It is especially refreshing after seeing the shitstorm that was caused in WOW when Tigole posted here. However, when you tell Melee that you are lowering our damage due to a bug, to us it still is a nerf. Especially considering the fact that most melee just aren't doing that much damage right now compared to our caster counterparts.

Alarion · 03-07-2007, 05:24 PM

Eh, I would assume they are using some sort of code versioning system (goddamn, are you at the very least using CVS or SVN?) and should be able to pull all the change notes from that with a few clicks of the mouse.

But yes, garbage in, garbage out. If the devs are fucking retarded and can't annotate their changes properly - it's really a moot point.

But see, this is where the project manager comes in, with their shiny laptops and elite copies of MS Project. Devs should only be working approved tasks - and as such, the PM should be able to export a list of changes that were approved for work and completed.

Alarion · 03-07-2007, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ameraves Loyalheart

Nino, I think it is awesome how you guys come here and post. It is especially refreshing after seeing the shitstorm that was caused in WOW when Tigole posted here. However, when you tell Melee that you are lowering our damage due to a bug, to us it still is a nerf. Especially considering the fact that most melee just aren't doing that much damage right now compared to our caster counterparts.

I agree. It's awesome to hear it straight from the devs, without the retarded PR spin.

As for this comment... I find it odd, that many classes damage is "2x above where it should be", so they reduce it - yet they just increased quest XP gains because people weren't leveling fast enough. What exactly am I missing here?

Kazgrim · 03-07-2007, 05:29 PM

Ahh good your world servers are down. I can only pray that it's to reverse the insanely retarded game killing nerf you just performed on every melee class you have otherwise you'd find yourself without a playerbase.

That isn't just overreactionary hatespeech talking. If this shit is truly "working as intended" you can kiss your playerbase and hence game goodbye. Hopefully the mountains of complaints you are receiving should clue you in that something is wrong and needs to be investigated. The patch didn't do what you stated it did in the patch notes. Someone messed up coding something, because every ability triggered by a hotkey is now at 1/2 damage, not just specials that do not use your standard autoattack formula to calculate a hit's damage.

03-07-2007, 04:34 PM	#78 (permalink)
Vaxxx What is and what should never be Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 82 +0 Internets	Patch Notes I would first like to say that I appreciate Nino and other Devs for posting here. I realize that they can only do/say so much. However there are two issues that dumbfound me. The first is fixing broken mechanics or "nerfs" the second is patch notes. In regards to fixing things, I see two large problems, one is that you may say a mechanic is broken and needs to be fixed but to a player that bought the game on day one and had said mechanic, and no one told him it was broken, what do you expect him to say when you come along after a month or so and change it, generally downwards. Of course people will scream. It may be a matter of semantics but both sides are right. A better solution is to let players know before hand that certain mechanics are not working as intended and will be fixed at some time. Be upfront so that when you get around to it people are ready instead of looking like you pull off kneejerk reactions all the time. In terms of patch notes, yes I realize how many different people are working on different things and the amount of information flowing around is staggering but really, get the guy to put the information together and if it's a big patch have a meeting and make sure that it's right. Secondly be clear and concise in the patch notes. It really seems like you guys and other companies try and just slide stuff through. You must know by know that will never be acceptable. People instantly break things apart, they parse things, rumors fly and next thing you know people are up in arms and threatening to quit the game. By first off letting the community know what mechanics will be getting an overhaul whether for good or for bad, people can digest it and be ready, then when the changes happen, be very open and let people know exactly what is going on. I read through those patch notes a few times and really it's sad, a huge change to peoples damage gets the same line space as some crappy change to a short sword graphic. Thats not right and I have little sympathy for you guys when stuff like this happens. I love your game but thats just shoddy Community Relations. The final thing, you guys always have to balance (nerf) I get that. But really for every nerf that you guys implement you should also fix a broken ability that isn't working the other way. To summarize, Be open with the players on what is a priority and what kind of fix will happen either god or bad. If you have to fix something downwards make sure you also fix things that need fixing upwards. Have clear, detailed patch notes, that reduce hysteria and treat the players like they are somewhat intelligent. Trying to slide things through has been proven over and over to just cause problems. I really enjoy the game, I feel that it is progressing in a good direction, but you guys really need to get this stuff straightened out and fast. Vaxx Last edited by Vaxxx; 03-07-2007 at 04:47 PM..

03-07-2007, 04:43 PM	#80 (permalink)
Araxen A Bearded Gnome Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Near Chicago, IL Posts: 4,912	I'm having EQ1 nightmares all over again. How hard is it get this shit straight on pach days? If Blizzard can nail their shit down on the first MMO. Brad and Co should be able to nail down this shit on their 2nd MMO. Don't get me wrong Blizzard has had their share of bugs on patch days, but nothing on what Brad and Co can pump out. __________________ PSN: Araxen http://www.last.fm/user/araxen The Best FAQ on the Internet: The Official God FAQ

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03-07-2007, 04:27 PM	#76 (permalink)
Kolle Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 4,879 -25 Internets	I'm getting sick of the stuff Blizzard pulls. WoW is obviously goin down the drain here with these latest changes. They've always been so stupid about that kinda stuff. I mean, I'm not playing anymore and i'm not giving them my money, but they should listen to my bitching anyways. True, I really don't know what the fuck is going on since I don't play, but that doesn't mean anything I've said carries less weight.

03-07-2007, 04:51 PM	#81 (permalink)
Faltigoth Army Football forever!! Who needs wins, anyway?!? Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 781 +0 Internets	l would love to be a fly on the wall during the After Action Review (or whatever they call such things in the software industry) at Sigil HQs tomorrow, heh. I imagine heads are going to roll. Somebody record that shit with a cellphone and put it on YouTube or something. That being said, my personal favorite shit that's screwed up is the server status message on the launcher that is only right when it feels like being right and generally doesn't reflect a damn thing about the reality of server availability.

03-07-2007, 04:52 PM	#82 (permalink)
QueefMaker Guinness Lover Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 53	And for cyring out loud, update the patch notes you get when you launch the game. Nothing like seeing "All Servers Up", but not being able to log on and having to come here to find out what the hell is going on.

03-07-2007, 04:54 PM	#84 (permalink)
Darus Grey I can dance if I want to Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 1,839	Once again I'm reminded why I quit adventuring until this shit gets fixed. That said... Buying: T5 weaponsmith upgrade recipe. PST

03-07-2007, 05:02 PM	#85 (permalink)
Alarion Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hampton Roads, VA Posts: 146 +1 Internets	ya know, it's kind of depressing, being stuck in a dead end job writing ordnance software for the US Navy when I would kill to get into the game dev industry - and then I read about how patch notes are handled. I was looking at Sigil's jobs page today. I think you guys need to add a position for "some nazi motherfucker who can whip our QA and testing dept into shape" meh.

03-07-2007, 05:24 PM	#88 (permalink)
Alarion Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hampton Roads, VA Posts: 146 +1 Internets	Eh, I would assume they are using some sort of code versioning system (goddamn, are you at the very least using CVS or SVN?) and should be able to pull all the change notes from that with a few clicks of the mouse. But yes, garbage in, garbage out. If the devs are fucking retarded and can't annotate their changes properly - it's really a moot point. But see, this is where the project manager comes in, with their shiny laptops and elite copies of MS Project. Devs should only be working approved tasks - and as such, the PM should be able to export a list of changes that were approved for work and completed.

03-07-2007, 05:29 PM	#90 (permalink)
Kazgrim Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 447 +4 Internets	Ahh good your world servers are down. I can only pray that it's to reverse the insanely retarded game killing nerf you just performed on every melee class you have otherwise you'd find yourself without a playerbase. That isn't just overreactionary hatespeech talking. If this shit is truly "working as intended" you can kiss your playerbase and hence game goodbye. Hopefully the mountains of complaints you are receiving should clue you in that something is wrong and needs to be investigated. The patch didn't do what you stated it did in the patch notes. Someone messed up coding something, because every ability triggered by a hotkey is now at 1/2 damage, not just specials that do not use your standard autoattack formula to calculate a hit's damage.