Vanguard Patch Notes Update #1

[Aradune Mithara]

Originally Posted by Rulan

Not including changes in patch notes is one of the common things over the history of MMOs that have annoyed players. I'm confused as to why you would rely on one guy sifting through emails to compile a list of what changes were made. I must be missing something...

Could you not setup a central changelog where there is a central database which a coder is required to input what changes he has made? It would be no extra work at all for them. In fact you could even have it take the email they are sending and parse the text into the changelog. At patch time, all the changes made could be generated into one document, which could then be edited or reworded as needed.

I bet you could get someone from the community to create a web based script to handle that in an hour or less. No more complaints about missed changes in patch notes, because every change done would be recorded and every change made to that build would be documented...

We do need to do a better job with this. I would prefer we give more information out than less. We don't want to do anything stealthly. The downside is the more detail, the possibility of more confusion or misunderstanding, but I think we need to take that risk. We learned the hard way with EQ and made some bad calls keeping some changes internally. We either didn't want to confuse people and/or we wanted to see how things played out and/or we wanted to maintain the 'mystery' of the game as it evolved and changed. What we learned is it backfires. We need to have detailed patch notes, make them as clear as possible, etc. We also need to do a better job at posting changes and additions we have planned for the future so there are less surprises and our intent is more clear.

We're already making an effort to do this, and the team is working hard at this, and we're still very busy, but that doesn't mean we can't improve. In the meantime, thanks for your patience and understanding.

[holymight]

Any word on when you will be adding the flying mount quest?

[chackle]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

marketing stuff

We're all fully aware of need for balance, whether it be nerf or boost, for the long term health of the game. The noise isn't about that, it's about wondering where your priorities are, a lot of shit was flat out broken in this content patch and lot of other shit has been broken since release. The only thing of note to happen to rangers specifically in the last two patches has been the text of one spell description changing and fleetblade, an ability that can only be used once every 30 secs having it's damage increased slightly and it's used for it's crits, not it's damage anyway.

In the meantime we've now got broken range damage, broken spells, broken attributes, a broken pet and significantly reduced melee damage. Where's the explanations mentioned yesterday to all of the melee classes about why these changes were made?

[Arbuste]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

Some nerfs and tweaks are going to be necessary and happen with every MMOG both during beta and for a period of time following launch. (...)
We don't like to nerf -- in fact we hate it. We certainly don't like upsetting people and will do our damndest to avoid them if at all possible. Heck, we play this game too, and many of us a LOT. (...)
The alternative would be to let issues stay untouched and cause problems... say a class or classes are unbalanced so people over time feel compelled to play the more powerful classes even though they would have preferred to play another class. Or we leave an exploit in so players feel compelled to advance more quickly in certain areas of the world or by doing certain things, leaving the rest of the world and the opportunities to advance neglected. Or we don't add to the game in fear that we may make mistakes and have to address them, upsetting some people. We can't do that.

Four points:
1)Sure nerfs and TWEAKS are necessary. Nobody is stupid enough to deny that. But so far, you've been nerfing much more than you've been fixing.

2)That's why I doubt you hate nerfing and "upsetting people." Either you are the clumsier bunch of Developpers ever, or you like to hurt people and make them sad. You have a great, great opportunity with Vanguard: your game is so fucked-up, as far as class abilities / class balance is concerned, that you have just as many abilities in need of nerfing as in need of fixing.
Monks waited way too long, and through way too many major nerf, for their fixes (which was finally hastily implemented when the whining got deafening enough.) Bard song parts just do not work for the most part.
Nerf if you have to, but give people something to look forward and to be happy about in patches. Not just nerfs. It's obvious you don't care enough about how a given patch will be received by the community.

3)The way you nerf... I won't get the EQ Monk out of my sleeve again, although it's a similar example. Let's let it rest. But look at the healers. Obviously, you feel the need to "tweak" down the Healers. Obviously, you want to reduce their ability to solo. All right, I disagree but I'm biased: I like playing my Cleric. Let's say it's really needed for the good health of the game.
Why the fuck do you have to implement 3 major nerfs at the same time? Mitigation Nerf, Heals interruption Nerf and (allegedly, as the reports are contradictory, but even 2 would be overkill) DPS Nerf.
And you tell us you don't like to upset people? No Cleric in their right mind would whine too much about a (reasonable) mitigation nerf. But did you have to nerf everything at the same time?
And don't tell us you're 100% sure it was necessary and that you tested it. You don't have time to. Players can be a tolerant (even blindly so) bunch. But you're pushing it constantly.

4)Classes nerfs and non-class-related nerfs are totally different subjects. Exploitable mobs / quests / areas / whatever need to be fixed fast and nobody will complain much about it.
Even an "exploitable class ability" needs to be fixed asap. But it shouldn't get nerfed into oblivion at the same time (ex: Bard Tynen's snare, although I still hoped you just screwed up and bugged it.)

[teneran]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

Some issues just don't materialize until you go live. Remember, the game has only been out a little over a month. Some nerfs and tweaks are going to be necessary and happen with every MMOG both during beta and for a period of time following launch. That said, we've planned a lot better, given our experience making MMOGs in the past. I'm not going to say we're going to stop making tweaks in the future, or changes that some may consider a nerf -- after all, the long term health of the game is more important than the desires or wants of the individual. Making a more balanced game and our responsibilities as stewards of this evolving, virtual world and service mandates that we balance and tweak. That said, I think it's safe to say that these changes will happen less and less frequently as things settle down and reach more of an equilibrium.

But to be completely honest, in the future, whether it be a Live update or part of a major expansion, if we add significant content of mechanics to the game, undoubtedly we'll have to follow up with some tweaks again -- and some may be considered positive, and others unfortunately negative. These are just the facts of maintaining a service and a healthy MMOG for months and years. We don't like to nerf -- in fact we hate it. We certainly don't like upsetting people and will do our damndest to avoid them if at all possible. Heck, we play this game too, and many of us a LOT. But again, we have to look at the big picture and long term health of the game. While we love the fact that the game is out and we're in a live environment, and while we have a lot of cool plans for new features, classes, mechanics, areas to explore, updated areas, etc., which makes us excited and will continue to evolve Vanguard into an even more incredible game (like I've said, as cool as Vanguard is now (and yes, I realize there are issues and bugs), the Vanguard of 2008 is going to smoke the Vanguard of 2007, and the Vanguard of 2009 smoke 2008. We have a LOT of cool stuff planned (city building, mounted combat, ship to ship combat, better AI and more interesting dungeon layouts and population, eventually user generated content and a more dynamic world, and so much more). But as these things get added, either by the live team or as part of a major expansion, while we'll do our best to test things on test servers, etc. they will be going live and problems will be exposed. And those problems will have to be addressed.

Sorry to go so long on this, but I really want to be up front and clear about this. Again, we hate nerfing or upsetting anyone, but from the very beginning, in the very first FAQ we put up about the game years ago, we made a commitment that the long term and overall health of the game means that overall players will enjoy a better game and a better service. Some people may be affected adversely, or perceive they are, but overall and over time our commitment to maintaining a great game and a great service will pay off.

The alternative would be to let issues stay untouched and cause problems... say a class or classes are unbalanced so people over time feel compelled to play the more powerful classes even though they would have preferred to play another class. Or we leave an exploit in so players feel compelled to advance more quickly in certain areas of the world or by doing certain things, leaving the rest of the world and the opportunities to advance neglected. Or we don't add to the game in fear that we may make mistakes and have to address them, upsetting some people. We can't do that. Arguably the greatest thing about MMOGs is that they continue to advance and evolve -- they're never truly done. What an exciting upside -- to participate in a game that offers more and more the months and even years that you play it. Making the game both deeper and broader is what we've planned for Vanguard for so long. But then we're not perfect either, and we will make mistakes -- hopefully less because of the experience we have making these games -- but then we're pretty ambitious as well, as so we'll likely make brand new mistakes. For that I'll apologize up front, but when we do make mistakes or when something goes live and doesn't work exactly like we'd planned, or what wasn't apparent on dev servers, or on test servers, we will then have to fix the problems in a live environment. Some fixes, hopefully most, will make the majority of players happy. But some will be perceived as negative

What you do have is our commitment to be available and to explain our decisions and to listen to all of you. Hopefully this will minimize 'nerfs' and when they do occur you'll at least know why -- you may agree or disagree -- but we will both explain and listen, because we owe you guys that and because from the beginning Sigil has always stood for being up front and not hiding things -- stealth nerfs and the like.

Thanks for listening and for your understanding and patience as we continue to build upon the foundation that is Vanguard and take it places not only have we planned and dreamed about for years now, but also places we haven't even thought of yet

*bow*

I appreciate the explanation Brad, thanks.

Please take the following as constructive criticism. You guys really need to develop and/or implement a robust QA/QC system for this "tweaking". Code changes need to be tested/checked, patch notes need to actually reflect what changed, etc. And you can't do this informally.

I design bridges for a living, and I can tell you we track changes to production plans are LOT more carefully than you all do and our plans and specifications are a lot less complicated than your code. I was floored when I read that one person assembles the patch notes from e-mails and pushes it without back checking. DUH, of course the notes are going to have mistakes.

Granted, the consequences of a mistake for me is more severe than a mistake with your game but still, I'd be embarressed if QA/QC was implented as poorly in my work as it seems to be in Vanguard.

Maybe what would help just having a developer log into a character on the test server and mess around for 15 minutes to test "tweaks" before they get pushed. I logged in post-patch and in 15 minutes just from playing found things wrong with the patch. It felt like it wasn't tested at all. Not saying it wasn't, but saying that was the perception.

Not to beat a dead horse but what you guys are hopefully hearing on this board is that we don't mind changes that need to be made to balance things and to ensure long term integrity of the game. What we do mind is shoddy implementation of this game balancing, and seeming neglect of fixing bugs and broken abilities.

Do what you need to do, just take the time/effort to do it "right" (not saying perfect, but as close as is reasonable) the first time.

[tjac]

eh, screw my post. if i'm up so late playing the game, it's my own damn fault if i've got complaints. doesn't matter what brad says or does.

[akherat]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

Some issues just don't materialize until you go live. Remember, the game has only been out a little over a month.
.....

Thanks for listening and for your understanding and patience as we continue to build upon the foundation that is Vanguard and take it places not only have we planned and dreamed about for years now, but also places we haven't even thought of yet

*bow*

Brad,
Thank you for the very political 'keep playing it will get better and cooler and wow' post. For all those that needed to see it, there are a lot more that don't. We know that things will improve over time and the game will get better. Many of us are willing to accept that and work through these initial issues. We don't need sunshine blown up our ass repeatedly.

You make this massive post, which directly addresses NONE of the original posters comments. We know there are bugs and issues with the game. We know there is balancing going on, and that people are going to bitch about it loud and proud, regardless of its necessity. We know things will get better.

What we do not know, and what everyone keeps asking for and getting this politically correct sunshine present to the cornhole instead, is what is being done to fix specific abilities for classes that are well known to be broken. DSC's have DPS issues and TONS of broken abilities at mid to high levels. As in they don't work at all. Click and nothing happens. Not bugged, not "oh my damage from this weapon/ability/thing is 70% of what it was last patch wah wah wah" - flat out completely broke. None of what has recently been patched in for this class actually "fixes" anything. Forgive my ignorance of how all of the inner secret workings of game development actually operate, but wouldn't it be a higher priority to fix abilities that are broken BEFORE tweaking class balance?

[Bladefury]

Fixing broken stuff is much more important then "balancing" the classes right now mainly because of the incredibly huge numbers of broken things.

Fixing crashes needs to be a priority.
Updating tooltips to display what they ACTUALLY DO needs to be a priority.
Making sure you don't break more then you fix in a patch needs to be a priority.

Nerfing random_class_01 because they do 5% too much damage right now? NOT A PRIORITY!

[Aradune Mithara]

Originally Posted by akherat

Brad,
Thank you for the very political 'keep playing it will get better and cooler and wow' post. For all those that needed to see it, there are a lot more that don't. We know that things will improve over time and the game will get better. Many of us are willing to accept that and work through these initial issues. We don't need sunshine blown up our ass repeatedly.

You make this massive post, which directly addresses NONE of the original posters comments. We know there are bugs and issues with the game. We know there is balancing going on, and that people are going to bitch about it loud and proud, regardless of its necessity. We know things will get better.

What we do not know, and what everyone keeps asking for and getting this politically correct sunshine present to the cornhole instead, is what is being done to fix specific abilities for classes that are well known to be broken. DSC's have DPS issues and TONS of broken abilities at mid to high levels. As in they don't work at all. Click and nothing happens. Not bugged, not "oh my damage from this weapon/ability/thing is 70% of what it was last patch wah wah wah" - flat out completely broke. None of what has recently been patched in for this class actually "fixes" anything. Forgive my ignorance of how all of the inner secret workings of game development actually operate, but wouldn't it be a higher priority to fix abilities that are broken BEFORE tweaking class balance?

'
Keep in mind guys that we have a large team, broken up into art, programming, design, and management. And within those teams are specialists in different areas (say one designer works on classes, while another populates NPCs). Same goes with the other departments -- one artist may focus on terrain while another character models and animations. One programmer's expertise may be in graphics programming, while another game mechanics, and another server side functionality and performance.

What I'm getting at, and I've posted similar posts for the last 8 years it seems, but that's cool What I'm getting at is we can and *have* be able to focus on different things and work concurrently in different areas. Therefore we can tweak, balance, fix bugs, create or adjust art assets, optimize, etc, etc. all at the same time.

So the complaint that like I've said I've been hearing since the early EQ days that if we patch in, say, a tweak (be it positive or a dreaded nerf), that we are somehow not fixing bugs. They're *not* mutually exclusive. A development team is a group of specialists who work together collaberatively but each have their areas of responsibility. The days of Richard Garriott programming Ultima 1 by himself are long, long gone. Generalists are gone and specialists are in (although that collaberative aspect, being able to work well in a team, is very key -- while people may specialize, those that think they don't need to communicate or interact or brainstorm together at times get weeded out pretty quickly -- and the larger the team size, the more important this is -- I'd likely take a less talented person who could work together well in a team and collaberatively than a more talented person who was a loner or had an attitude and doesn't play well with others).

Anyway, I digress, but to be clear, just because A gets done doesn't mean other devs aren't working on B and then another individual or group working on C. Working concurrently is actually essential in games of this scope and scale.

[Kaxmax]

Then fire the team working on fixing broken class abilities, because they're obviously working at a far slower pace than the nerf team.

[Aradune Mithara]

Originally Posted by Kaxmax

Then fire the team working on fixing broken class abilities, because they're obviously working at a far slower pace than the nerf team.

Great way to get me to stop posting, making callous statements like this, whether you are serious or not. The team as a whole is busting ass and has been for a long time. Even joking about firing people who have families, bills, etc. when we're talking about COMPUTER GAMES is over the top.

[Twobit Whore]

Here is a novel idea, do whatever the hell it is you do in your cubicle, but when it comes time to push that shit out to the live servers, make sure it's something that will make your players happy, or happy enough to swallow the shit that makes them unhappy at the same time. Especially when you label it the super mega huge awesome-sauce Vanguard Content Update #1...

No one out here gives a flying rat's ass what your specialists and generalists are doing, they only care about what they can see, hear and touch.. and right now it apparently is looking, sounding and feeling like crap.

[Tinz]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

Great way to get me to stop posting, making callous statements like this, whether you are serious or not. The team as a whole is busting ass and has been for a long time. Even joking about firing people who have families, bills, etc. when we're talking about COMPUTER GAMES is over the top.

Gosh Charlie Brown, please don't take your football and go home, we all promise to suck up to you.

[woqqqa]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

Great way to get me to stop posting, making callous statements like this, whether you are serious or not. The team as a whole is busting ass and has been for a long time. Even joking about firing people who have families, bills, etc. when we're talking about COMPUTER GAMES is over the top.

The customer generally does not care about the people behind the product, he cares about the product and what he gets out of it. The seller cares about getting the customer to buy more of his product, be it in the short or long run, and little else. Sure it's callous, but that's society for you.

[Eternal]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

Great way to get me to stop posting, making callous statements like this, whether you are serious or not. The team as a whole is busting ass and has been for a long time. Even joking about firing people who have families, bills, etc. when we're talking about COMPUTER GAMES is over the top.

It's the US of A and their kids won't starve. Have some sense of perspective. It's firing of the incompetent ppl that makes this economy so awesome. But I bet they love a boss like you; rest assured most of us don't get the same consideration when we f up on our jobs.