Raph Koster take on Leveling Services

[Aethn Anvel]

Koster seems to be indifferent to or even sees the need for these services. Interesting read. Personally i just wish they would legalize RMT and just get this behind us, its not going away, so might as well regulate it better. (but DONT get the government involved, god help us all)

The reason we react negatively to power-levelling is once again the hang-up over whether or not someone “earned” their “position.” And I am increasingly unsure that the very notions of “earning” “position” make a damn bit of sense in these games.

From a post in the forum section below the blog -

Raph said on February 8th, 2007 at 11:28 am:
Hang on though — I agree that it minimizes the game. But you as a player shouldn’t give a damn about whether you’re invalidating the work of the designers.

The real issue is that the game is precluding you from playing with friends, precluding you from getting on the ride you want to get on. Disneyland doesn’t tell you “Sorry, you can’t get on Space Mountain until you have ridden A Small World five times. Your friends have, so they can go on ahead. you have to sit and listen to inane music a while longer.” If I met that situation, damn right I’d pay someone else to listen to that annoying song endlessly.

I don’t think power-levelling is solely about not having fun, in other words. It’s about the context in which you’re having the fun.

Raph’s Website » The power-levelling industry


I did not see this posted anyplace here, if its a duplicate then delete the thread.

[Deris]

Players understand the "earning" part - you respect someone a little more if they have incredibly nice gear, or are max level, etc (usually.).

Raph is so out of touch with his player base that it scares me.

[Vorph]

I'm all for someone trying to make a MMO other than EVE that doesn't rely on the same old leveling treadmill, and I think it's pretty lame that someone whose only claim to fame in the industry is that he's supposed to be an 'idea man' has this as his solution.

I hope Raph sticks to making retarded blog updates and is never again involved with any MMO I have even a passing interest in.

[Gnome Eater]

I don't hate Ralph or anything, but every time he posts anything I just happen to think that this guy is completely insane.

His ideas are the exact anti-thesis of fun for me.

[Zarcath]

His Disneyland analogy is slightly flawed, mainly these rides require no skill to understand or complete. If "It's a Small World" teaches you patience in an encounter and Raph wants to skip that shit and go right for "Space Mountain" and would PAY someone so he can pretend like he got the experience?

Raph's right though, people shouldn't care, and most who do it don't, but what does it say about you as a person? Every guild leader in an end-game guild would NEVER take a person that plvled to 60 in ANY MMO because they lack the knowledge and experience for that environment.

Raph says he wants to play with his friends and experience the same content at the same time? Well pony up and do it. If you can't keep up with your friends maybe you need different ones? This is exactly how people like George Scotto (department head of CS?) fucking shows up to company raid nights on his rogue and is backstabbing mezzed mobs. Or fucking gets a group of us to do a PR group and we go to umbral plains to do some bosses and he pulls all kinds of roaming trash and wants to know why we wiped.

Sorry Raph, with that kind of attitude why do you even design (lol) games? Maybe next time you should just code in your own powerleveling service and reap the rewards.

And yes, I realize how ironic it is that an asian is preaching anti-plvl services. Please continue to support my country. FOR CHINA!

[Believe]

It's only a matter of time until SoE starts allowing pay-for-premade characters...

Hell, they could just find the average amount of monthly fees a player pays before they reach max levelm, add 30 more bucks, and make a killing.

And not like it would cost very much to set up some automated online service for it.

And to be honest, I think the people most interested in power leveling their characters are people with atleast 1 max level character (if not multiple).

[Turzem]

I would like more games that don't have levels. They're an outdated, useless and terrible concept.

[Sancus]

I'm all for someone trying to make a MMO other than EVE that doesn't rely on the same old leveling treadmill

One of the only reasons that the EVE system works at all is because character buying/selling is completely legal. That means that you can catch up to a reasonable level by grinding out cash and buying a character. If you couldn't do this, the nature of the SP system would mean that new players could really never catch up.

And yes, to a certain extent, more SP only means more variety in the things you can fly, but to really catch up to the level of "maximized in enough stuff that your character is decently competitive" takes at least a year, which is a very long time to "max out" in an MMO, and it's arguable whether a year is even long enough.

[AngryGerbil]

Originally Posted by Sancus

One of the only reasons that the EVE system works at all is because character buying/selling is completely legal. That means that you can catch up to a reasonable level by grinding out cash and buying a character. If you couldn't do this, the nature of the SP system would mean that new players could really never catch up.

Almost positive I read, just today, that this is no longer 'legal' in EvE, hasn't been for a few months now I think. Perhaps I read it wrong but I don't think I did.

[Szlia]

It's pretty odd that Koster who really has a "virtual world" approach to MMORPG completely discards the social dimension of in-game achievements. It may be stupid, but it does not mean it's not there.

[Suineg]

Originally Posted by AngryGerbil

Almost positive I read, just today, that this is no longer 'legal' in EvE, hasn't been for a few months now I think. Perhaps I read it wrong but I don't think I did.

Right and wrong at the same time.

You can buy another account for isk and transfer it over using real money. The way around all that is just to buy the isk from a farmer etc and then just pay that way. That person then transfers and they sell the same isk for the same amount back to the farmers is the concept.

I actually like the whole idea.

Does it really affect you if someone buys a pre levelled character? Does it really show lack of skill? Do these games even take that much skill any more?

Does level + gear show skill in a game that you can just leech loot by showing up? Having a HWL character back in the "old days" yeah that was something that showed skill but now? Give me a break that random_purple_001 isn't an indication of gear it's the guild tag and guild firsts which in a game of millions of subscribers is the only way to "advance" or on your server the same concept.

[Suineg]

Originally Posted by Sancus

And yes, to a certain extent, more SP only means more variety in the things you can fly, but to really catch up to the level of "maximized in enough stuff that your character is decently competitive" takes at least a year, which is a very long time to "max out" in an MMO, and it's arguable whether a year is even long enough.

Except if I started today (I mapped this out with evemon) and maxed all of my learning skills and then maxed just the skills to fly a capital ship it would take about a year. I wouldn't be able to equip a single item on the ship but hey I can fly it. Oh and money? Not gonna happen since during that training I can't really fight since I have no other skills or mine even. Only hope would be to make it all based around mining and then just mine for a year straight to afford that capital ship of choice.

[Faith]

In my opinion its more to do with the age of the game or if levels mean anything. Ive met so many 70s that by right should not be able to operate a keyboard without seriously hurting themselves or their surroundings that Im totaly convinced that paying $50 to have a insta-70 character would make no diffrence what so ever.

On the other hand I would never begin to play a game with a year or so under its belt if I could not catch up decently fast. For example, I would not start a EQ2 char today to play with the 2 friends I have that play that game if I could not join them in doing whatever they are doing in under a month. I simply dont have the time for grinds anymore, but I do have cash. If I can buy a character to my liking to enjoy a few hours here and there with them its a diffrent matter.

Levels on their own should (and in some games sure as hell DO not) not dictate who is a good player, its more a measurement of how friendly the game is or who had too much spare time and is on top at the moment. As stated previously, its an outdated concept in itself.

[Old Man Potter]

That was an assinine statement by Raph Koster. Levels are the tangible result of accomplishments in level based MMO's. Each level is a unlockable gateway to more content, spells, abilities and such. Unlockable content is a mainstay of video game design philosophy. Levels also play a fundamental role in providing players with an element of social status. You want to play high end content? Then earn it. Nobody gets automatic entry on a Super Bowl team because they can throw a football around. Raph as a highly paid game designer should simply know better.

Raph needs to realize there is a vast difference in talking about good game design and actually producing good games. Talk is cheap. Stop talking Raph and start creating something. Let's see you make a great game for a change.

[Faith]

Originally Posted by Old Man Potter

That was an assinine statement by Raph Koster. Levels are the tangible result of accomplishments in level based MMO's. Each level is a unlockable gateway to more content, spells, abilities and such. Unlockable content is a mainstay of video game design philosophy. Levels also play a fundamental role in providing players with an element of social status. You want to play high end content? Then earn it. Nobody gets automatic entry on a Super Bowl team because they can throw a football around. Raph as a highly paid game designer should simply know better.

Raph needs to realize there is a vast difference in talking about good game design and actually producing good games. Talk is cheap. Stop talking Raph and start creating something. Let's see you make a great game for a change.

Except this no longer holds true since WoW came along. Levels are mostly
seen as obstacles to get to the "real" game. Noone is getting status from
being max level today, this holds true in EQ2, EQ and WoW, all level based
games. While levels are the easiest way of designing games, in this day and
age where most play for the fun and social factor, its simply an annoying
thing.

You dont need levels to "earn" anything, its more a question of how good you
are as a player that matters, and face it, max level means dick in most cases.
Hell, the minute we left the non-instance content behind we gave up the
entire "elite guild" concept and the need to be on top (and probl unemployed
or in school to have time for it) to experience the whole game. The whole
concept of "time invested = progress" has no place in games for a broad
public that want to play to have fun with a few friends a night or three per
week.

Why do you think WoW is still so sucssesful? Because its Warcraft, or because
a trained monky can level up to max in two months playing a few nights a
week?