Raph Koster take on Leveling Services

[Faille]

Originally Posted by Old Man Potter

Raph needs to realize there is a vast difference in talking about good game design and actually producing good games. Talk is cheap. Stop talking Raph and start creating something. Let's see you make a great game for a change.

For the love of god, don't encourage him to make more games. Hasn't the world suffered enough already?!

[Arbuste]

Originally Posted by Old Man Potter

That was an assinine statement by Raph Koster. Levels are the tangible result of accomplishments in level based MMO's. Each level is a unlockable gateway to more content, spells, abilities and such. Unlockable content is a mainstay of video game design philosophy. Levels also play a fundamental role in providing players with an element of social status. You want to play high end content? Then earn it. Nobody gets automatic entry on a Super Bowl team because they can throw a football around. Raph as a highly paid game designer should simply know better.

Well, I think I agree with Koster. If people want to pay for powerleveling, who the fuck cares?
Playing a MMORPG is not like playing in the Superbowl. There is nothing to win, you are not professional players. I think people are forgetting the "G" part of MMORPG more and more often. FYI, it means "game." As in "video game."

And leveling has nothing, or extremely little to do with how skilled you are. There is no challenge in leveling your 3rd character to 60 (or 70) in WoW. And little interest. I wouldn't pay. But if someone does, I don't give a shit. Social status, lol? How many AAs did you need in EQ to be cool? You have a 60 Hunter in WoW? You win at life, Sir.

That said, I agree with Szlia, it's very surprising to hear that from Koster.

[Gnome Eater]

Originally Posted by Arbuste

Well, I think I agree with Koster. If people want to pay for powerleveling, who the fuck cares?

On a PvE server, with instanced content, I don't give a shit if people pay for it or not.

On a PvP server with competition for spawns, artificial power boosts are complete bullshit. In EQ, it was customary for people to transfer to blue servers, gear up/gain flags, then come back on the PvP servers with gear you didn't have to fight for and talk shit.

[ArkturusMaximus]

Originally Posted by Deris

Players understand the "earning" part - you respect someone a little more if they have incredibly nice gear, or are max level, etc (usually.).

Raph is so out of touch with his player base that it scares me.

Which player base is that. The losers who actually respect people for in-game accomplishments? RESPECT? This is a fucking game.

Just because the guy made a shitty game doesn't mean he isn't right about some of the ideas he has. He's dead on with this one.

[leane]

Remember what his previous titles that he worked on were, they were not EQ type games but sandbox type games, Macroing skills up in UO was standard and not really a big deal because it wasn't a big effect on the game.

[Vagoo]

i dont pay attention to industry personalities. for those like me here is some back-story from wikipedia:

Raphael "Raph" Koster (b. September 7, 1971) is an American entrepreneur, game designer, and author of A Theory of Fun for Game Design. Koster is widely recognized for his work as the lead designer of Ultima Online and the creative director behind Star Wars Galaxies. Since July 2006, he has been working as the founder and president of Areae on an unannounced product.

[Faith]

Originally Posted by leane

Remember what his previous titles that he worked on were, they were not EQ type games but sandbox type games, Macroing skills up in UO was standard and not really a big deal because it wasn't a big effect on the game.

Leaving the computer on with a looping macro to shoot nearest target to get
weapon xp in SWG while being at work also comes to mind

Personaly I like the skillpoint based systems more because you can change
a few skills around when your sick to death of your current lineup. This
rerolling classes for the 10th time is getting to me, but then again Im getting
old. Actually Matrix Onlines system was great in this respect, just switch your
skill load and you go from martial arts expert to healer in 5 seconds. Pitty
the rest of the game was horrible.

[Deris]

Originally Posted by ArkturusMaximus

Which player base is that. The losers who actually respect people for in-game accomplishments? RESPECT? This is a fucking game.

Just because the guy made a shitty game doesn't mean he isn't right about some of the ideas he has. He's dead on with this one.

Who the fuck are you? You do realize what boards you are on? Why do you post here? Why do you care what some guild named "FoH" did. What made you seek out this board? Ahh notoriety and respect for one of the "names" of MMOs.. Gee isn't that the same fucking thing?

So if you're some dumbass in blues, and a warrior in full T5/Legendaries walks up and is all like "hay buddy" you wouldn't at least say "wow nice gear" and maybe ask questions? I don't mean respect in the lolwtfroleplay nerd way where you call the guy and let him fuck your sister because he has leet gear, I mean the "damn they did Onyxia with *how* many? type of respect.

[Sancus]

Meh, the real reason that everyone is saying Raph is blatantly wrong is because this is foh boards, a hardcore gaming forum. He's perfectly right for the vast majority of players. And it's long past time that laughable bullshit like levelling is not called an accomplishment anymore, or even a desirable thing to have in a game.

Originally Posted by Suineg

Except if I started today (I mapped this out with evemon) and maxed all of my learning skills and then maxed just the skills to fly a capital ship it would take about a year. I wouldn't be able to equip a single item on the ship but hey I can fly it. Oh and money? Not gonna happen since during that training I can't really fight since I have no other skills or mine even. Only hope would be to make it all based around mining and then just mine for a year straight to afford that capital ship of choice.

Um, are you sure you did your math right? To get my Amarr alt into a Gallente dread would take 115 days, and for a Gallente carrier, about 170 days. He has no Gallente ship skills. Even if all of his existing SP applied directly to the carrier skill path in other areas, he's only been training for about 100 days, not 195. So I'm pretty sure you're very off about how long it takes to train for a Capital ship.

And I should add that it's not true that all the skills you train for a cap ship are useless, you have to train battleship V after all, and BSes are your main ratting/missioning ship type.

You also don't need a capital ship to be acceptably maxed out, imo. There are a lot of people with 3+ year old accounts who can't fly them simply because they dislike them. But, still, it doesn't take anywhere near a year of 'out of your way training' to fly one. Heck, if you're training for a carrier, a lot of those days are for drone skills which you can put to use in the interim by flying a primarily drone-based ship.

[Zorlac]

Originally Posted by Turzem

I would like more games that don't have levels. They're an outdated, useless and terrible concept.

Scars of Velious was an awesome expansion. No levelling bullshit. I always thought leveling was nothing more than an excuse for lack of content. The gear you get is worthless in a few levels, the mobs/bosses become trivial the next day because you gained a level.

Take Scarlet Monastery for example. Bosses have a retarded small 2-3 item loot table, that's it. What a huge waste of resources (programmer, level designer, artist). At least SM was great pre TBC money farm for high level characters. RFD? Uldaman? Zul Farrak? They can't even add good stories. How "immersive" can be a level 40 dungeon with shitty or non existent story when you know that in 10 levels you will be in Stratholme fighting the real baddies with levels 56+? Having all dungeons start at max level (along with characters), the potential for good story lines/arcs is immense.

Why can't designers make a game that starts max level and do "progression" (god I hate that term) with keys and gear? Velious showed it was entirely possible and people loved it.

[Aethn Anvel]

My take on this is what is the standard for "Earned your Levels"? Sure, the obvious one is the guy who never played before, even 5 min, that buys an account and jumps into the game as max level max gear.

But what about the person who, take EQ1, has 2 legit, self leveled, lvl 75+500 chars already? What if he buys a 3rd account, say a healer bot? Did he not earn 150+1000 already in levels and AA's? Is there REALLY a point to making him level yet again from 1 to 75+500 just to prove his ePeni to some mystical, imaginary "Right of Passage" mojo people put on retard things like that?

[Zorlac]

Originally Posted by Deris

Players understand the "earning" part - you respect someone a little more if they have incredibly nice gear, or are max level, etc (usually.).

I don't think the word "respect" means what you think it means. Why the fuck would I respect someone who gets max level in (insert game here)? What the hell did this person do that I have to respect him? Spend time in a fucking videogame?

Bravo sir! Tremendous achivement! Fantastic work!

PS: The biggest douchebags on my old EQ servers had incredible gear.

[Gnome Eater]

Originally Posted by Aethn Anvel

You cant transfer from a blue server to a red server in EQ. You never could, legit. When Stormhammer was still going, there was a way to sneak this in, but again, not alegit way.

You obviously never played on a PvP server then, since we had a shitload of server transfers who got their flags from outside the server, then came back, since their guilds would get destroyed whenever they tried to raid on a red server.

[Welwood]

.

[woqqqa]

Originally Posted by Turzem

I would like more games that don't have levels. They're an outdated, useless and terrible concept.

Agreed. Better yet, have a game with no actual skills either (just a substitute for levels), but rather an interactive world. In other words, an experienced player might kill a newbie in a fight (on a hypothetical PvP server), but only because he managed to use trees as cover and then managed to back his opponent up against a cliff and push him off. In other words, make the player actually play the game...then again, that's likely some 5 years off if it's ever going to show up at all.