[EVE] The War Thread

[Chinaman889]

Why do I have a feeling this won't end well for BoB er IT Alliance?

[fucker]

Rapetrain is leaving the station again?

[tomodachi]

Originally Posted by fucker

Rapetrain is leaving the station again?

It doesn't really have a destination, so it'll likely just sit and spin in station.

What does attacking IT mean at this point? Flying around low sec and NPC 0.0 in massive blobs looking for a massive roaming IT blob? Until they have infrastructure to attack it'll mostly be a matter of the 'rapetrain' showing up to rep reinforced POSes on US hours, no?

How much of the NAP'd block will actually aggress once Dominion goes live? Won't most of the alliances be a bit distracted by the whole 'securing/developing their own sov' thing? (sincere question, I don't really know how existing 0.0 entities are planning to handle that... or how CCP is planning on handling the transition from the current sov system to the new one.)

[ShamusChad]

What is so different about the past 4 years from the situation in your post?

Roam around, mainly do nothing, NAPs, wait for changes.

Eve Online (registered trademark)

[tomodachi]

Originally Posted by ShamusChad

What is so different about the past 4 years from the situation in your post?

Roam around, mainly do nothing, NAPs, wait for changes.

Eve Online (registered trademark)

Nothing, actually. It was just in response to the 'rapetrain' comment. People got awful worked up about the 'This is IT' thread, but in the end IT isn't really something you can attack until they have infrastructure. Aside from the roaming blobs and what not, all the non-IT folks can really do at this point is play defense and wait.

Any predictions on the impact of Dominion on the commitment of PL, NC, Goons, etc. to one another? Is IT going to get the alliance on alliance fight they're supposedly looking for amidst all the distraction?

[Itzena]

CCP kills 0.0 ITExpansion.

[OneofOne]

Not even sure what to say. Add up the current fuel cost of your little empire, compare to new fees + fuel less extra income from upgraded systems (laugh) and tell me how happy you are. Ironcially, faction and deadspace gear (from anomalies and plexes), not to mention pirate implants, are going to tank if they are at all worth upgrading a system for.

I just don't get it.

I'm not ready to scream NGE just yet, but damn, on the surface this doesn't look very good.

[Itzena]

The funniest thing is in the comments thread where people have been asking the same question non-stop for close to a day now, but CCP absolutely dare not, cannot answer it: "YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running."

They answer yes, and the L4 Empire mission runners will collectively lose their shit and threadnaught. Answer no, and the various alliances and nulsec dwellers turn around and say "Well what's the point of 0.0 then?"

[tomodachi]

Originally Posted by Itzena

The funniest thing is in the comments thread where people have been asking the same question non-stop for close to a day now, but CCP absolutely dare not, cannot answer it: "YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running."

They answer yes, and the L4 Empire mission runners will collectively lose their shit and threadnaught. Answer no, and the various alliances and nulsec dwellers turn around and say "Well what's the point of 0.0 then?"

Faux drama. I don't think you'll find any sane empire L4 mission runners who think 0.0 should be less profitable. They would only threadnaught if you suggested nerfing L4 mission running to bring it in line with what you perceive the new 0.0 profitability to be.

Out of curiosity, why do you think the individual 0.0 pilot will find 0.0 less profitable with these changes? On an alliance level I understand why folks are going to have to make a decision between maintaining their current space and paying through the nose, or reducing their current footprint. I guess I fail to see how the average 0.0 individual could view the coming infrastructure upgrades as anything but an individual income buff, however.

I'm looking forward to the changes. I can definitely see why some of the alliances currently holding large swaths of 0.0 space would be against it, however.

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by tomodachi

Faux drama. I don't think you'll find any sane empire L4 mission runners who think 0.0 should be less profitable.

You've not been reading the official thread, then?

Out of curiosity, why do you think the individual 0.0 pilot will find 0.0 less profitable with these changes? On an alliance level I understand why folks are going to have to make a decision between maintaining their current space and paying through the nose, or reducing their current footprint. I guess I fail to see how the average 0.0 individual could view the coming infrastructure upgrades as anything but an individual income buff, however.

I'm looking forward to the changes. I can definitely see why some of the alliances currently holding large swaths of 0.0 space would be against it, however.

Alliance leaders: "Welp, moongoo is nerfed and we have to pay rent on our systems now. I wonder where we're going to get the extra ISK from?"
Alliance leaders: *Moves tax slider*

Incidentally, anomaly rats drop deadspace loot, not belt-rat loot. That means you either spend all your time hopping from belt to belt hoping for good rats to be spawned or you scan for anomalies, hope you find an unoccupied one, hope that it's not had its spawns cherry-picked, and then get worse loot/salvage/bounties at the end of it all.

Move to a different system? Ah, but Alliance holdings got reduced in size, remember? CCP wants dozens of people in a couple of systems, not one or two people over dozens of systems. So you're all crammed into the few systems still held like sardines, scrabbling for table scraps.

...

Or you go back to empire and run L4s at zero risk for more profit.

[tomodachi]

Originally Posted by Itzena

You've not been reading the official thread, then?

I did read through it when it was closer to 20 pages long. I just skimmed through the 40 or so pages that had been added since, mostly looking for DEV responses. Honestly, I don't recall seeing anyone arguing that level 4 mission running in high sec should be more profitable than an income that can be made through 0.0 living.

What I did see was a mass of bitter 0.0 folks posting about the guaranteed 10 combat anomalies and how that combined with belt ratting will only support 10-15 pilots per system with the current numbers. In and of itself this is a boost over the current system to the individual 0.0 dweller. Very few people in the thread seem to consider the mining anomalies, increased 0.0 WH spawn frequency (often quite profitable) or the fact that moon mining isn't going away.

I do, however, think two things are missing: First, they need a way to tax a 0.0 system independent of corp taxes or station fees. Second, I don't think the changes will really be fully taken advantage of until the treaty system they've mentioned is put in game.

Alliance leaders: "Welp, moongoo is nerfed and we have to pay rent on our systems now. I wonder where we're going to get the extra ISK from?"
Alliance leaders: *Moves tax slider*

Moon goo is nerfed, but it isn't going to go away. I personally hope this results in moon goo profits going toward sov costs rather than fueling disposable cap fleets. I'm also pulling for the increased costs to curtail some of the jump bridge system madness that is out there. Space needs to be big again.

Incidentally, anomaly rats drop deadspace loot, not belt-rat loot. That means you either spend all your time hopping from belt to belt hoping for good rats to be spawned or you scan for anomalies, hope you find an unoccupied one, hope that it's not had its spawns cherry-picked, and then get worse loot/salvage/bounties at the end of it all.

Move to a different system? Ah, but Alliance holdings got reduced in size, remember? CCP wants dozens of people in a couple of systems, not one or two people over dozens of systems. So you're all crammed into the few systems still held like sardines, scrabbling for table scraps.

As currently proposed it does suggest alliance bloat is not the way to go. I don't think that is a particularly bad thing though.

CCP Soundwave said that the 10 combat anomalies should instantly respawn upon completion in one comment; doesn't that address the cherry picking concern? CCP Chronotis also commented on wanting to make the complexes group objectives, with appropriate rewards, but said they wouldn't be able to do so as a part of the Dominion expansion. He hinted at making them more like the sleeper anomalies in WH space at some point though.

Or you go back to empire and run L4s at zero risk for more profit.

Did you originally move to 0.0 for the individual PvE isk-farming capability?

[Dyscord]

I don't play Eve, but, is the typical Alliance Bruhaha about a) Take space, + keep old space = $$profit$$, or is it b) Take space, - leave behind old space = $$profit$$.

Because if its really going to be as expensive as everyone lets on to be, and if alliances will be on the edge of their ability to hold space, will there be no way to actually 'conquer' someone else? Will it will just turn into one giant episode of Trading Spaces: Internet Spaceship Edition?

[Zugare]

Im just not sure how making it so you need grind constantly in a system and pay fees to maintain it is going to motivate any small corp to move to 0.0 Why spend all that time and money with the risk of anyone kicking your ass at anytime, so tat you can make the same moeny you made safely in empire.

[tomodachi]

Originally Posted by Zugare

Im just not sure how making it so you need grind constantly in a system and pay fees to maintain it is going to motivate any small corp to move to 0.0 Why spend all that time and money with the risk of anyone kicking your ass at anytime, so tat you can make the same moeny you made safely in empire.

You always did have to grind constantly to maintain sov. The main difference now will be that the grinding is spread out amongst alliance members instead of concentrated in the hands of a few bitter, EvE-addicted POS-monkeys. Alliances will hopefully only be able to afford holding space proportional to their active, contributing member count. (Later augmented by contributing parties outside of the alliance via treaties.)

Somewhere along the line people grabbed onto this notion of "CCP wants to make 0.0 accessible to small alliances" as being "CCP wants to make it easy for random small empire corporation to claim and hold territory in 0.0". I don't think that is, or ever was their intention. The new mechanics looks like it would certainly be easier for a small alliance to lay claim to an area, but the costs involved are the least of their concerns. They're still going to need to be able to defend it against the first random blob alliance that decides to attack them "for the lulls" or because "they don't deserve space".

Where small empire corporations will break into 0.0 is with treaties. What remains to be seen is if the changes to sov mechanics will make forming treaties with these smaller entities compelling to the more powerful 0.0 alliances.

[Itzena]

But why bother?