[EVE] The War Thread

[Gurgeh]

They can and should have space, there should be more tier of 0.0, some good stuff for the powerhouses and less good regions for the others. We really need more space, more distance between the alliances.

Logistic is too easy, hell alliances fight on MULTIPLES frontlines simultaneously these day, it's getting ridiculous how distances don't matter anymore.

[WillzZz]

Originally Posted by Gurgeh

If they want less globalized conflicts, more small alliances owning space, make logistic and long range movement a REAL pain in the ass. I fear that they will make claiming space easier once again, which will lead to less 0.0 alliances.

Adding large amounts of tedium to a game is a surefire path to success. (Not that you're wrong)

I'd say dealing with the checks and balances in relation to the size of alliances and fleets while in tandem reducing the tedious nature of the game at alliance level is a pretty good plan. Everything regarding artificial limits to gameplay has an easy workaround (make a new alliance), so I'm curious if they can think of a way to counteract the huge alliance size. Almost every PvP game to date has had a problem with large scale alliances. It's no secret that sovereignty is broken and boring.

I also agree with an above poster that finding a way to encourage individual profit from moons is a fun way to change them. I'm all for anything which encourages large scale action and conflict, especially on a smaller level. Sometimes when I log on all I want is to fight some fun 10v10 fights, but that's almost impossible nowadays. I could spend an entire weekend and never get that fight and it's just frustrating.

[Bias]

What about setting up Sov such that losing Sov is based on territory loss? The best example would be the old BoB holdings. Imagine those are all marked as SoV-4, but only the Sov-4 capable systems get the benefits (jammers, etc). So if an enemy takes a particular system, that goes into some bucket that says "system lost: Sov4 takes x points of damage", and during a major push inward, enough systems get eaten that it reduces the size down to a Sov3 area, which reduces down to Sov2, etc.

The tradeoff being you might also have a second method of measuring per-system control as well, so you have a System-4 / Sov-2 setup. And System-level control (You've held this system for n weeks) gives some bonuses, and Sov gives the really big bonuses.

You'd have individual system-level control, but large-scale alliances pushing to get the large-scale benefits of high volume map control would not become unassailable fortresses that can only be broken by someone disbanding the alliance.

I'm not an Eve player by any means, but having a multi-tiered approach to control & the benefits of control of territory seems like it would address a number of the complaints I've seen people level here, as well as encourage more regular 'small' scale wars as alliances/corps whittle at each others' borders to keep them from maintaining their high-level general Soverignity, but still keeping all systems vulnerable to a raid or three.

[Tolanin]

one of EVEs most brilliant moves was making travel so slow in the original game, it added alot of elements to the game and made it really hard to control space that you didnt really live in... over the years they have moved farther and farther away from that and I think it was a mistake cause it allowed alot of what they are trying to fight now to happen. I also liked the original sov system alot more.

[Gurgeh]

Originally Posted by WillzZz

Adding large amounts of tedium to a game is a surefire path to success. (Not that you're wrong)

This is where I disagree : people spend a constant amount of time (roughly) on the tedious stuff : farming, logistic... By making it easier, people do not spend less time doing it, they do it further away, on a larger scale. By making movement faster, people don't spend less time traveling, they travel further away. Eve has become a lot smaller over the time. An alliance can cover 1/4 of the map, add another 1/4 of the map if they have a staging fleet as it is becoming more and more common then of course megablob are the norm, if it is so ridiculously easy to blob.

Same goes for the pos, if the easier the log got, the more pos deployed we had. Seriously who would have thought that having hundreds of pos would be the norm when they were first introduced, that you had to fuel them every few days, that you didn't have all the shortcut and safe logistical routes.

Make Eve bigger again please, making the "boring stuff" easier and faster produced the exact opposite of the desired effect.

[Ninen]

Boring stuff is boring, but its also 100% necessary for the health of the game.

But this is just and offshoot of the "if we can't have 100% fun 100% of the time then the game is broken" argument that has broken out over mmo's forever.

[Gurgeh]

Originally Posted by Ninen

Boring stuff is boring, but its also 100% necessary for the health of the game.

But this is just and offshoot of the "if we can't have 100% fun 100% of the time then the game is broken" argument that has broken out over mmo's forever.

Personnaly, I tend to disagree with what MMO designer seems to think to be boring. I'll take 2 examples :
1) Corpses retrieval in EQ, some of the most fun I had playing the game was CRing in retardingly difficult places, like lower seb, planes. It was challenging, required to be "creative" at times. Afaik, CR completely disappeared from MMOs, right ?
2) Logistic run in 0.0, getting my shit into 0.0, when there was no "99.9% safe shortcuts" and you have to get your stuff there in a shitty hauler with perma-camped 0.0 chokepoints was fun for me. Who the fuck still uses gates in eve, except cyno cloaked scouts ?

The problem is that for many players, unfortunately, the "fun" is to get instant reward all the time. This is especialy true for the casual player, a lot them absolutely need to "get something done" when they are playing.

[Vilgan]

"Home" for me is in sov 0.0, like most people. I think I actually spend more time in NPC 0.0 though. better rats, missions, and a lot more pvp action. People don't like to invade when we can just JB to the choke point and they are trapped. It'd be fun to see JBs gone... but at the same time, its kind of nice having a very defensible home region with some home field advantage. So... yeah :P

[WillzZz]

Originally Posted by Gurgeh

Personnaly, I tend to disagree with what MMO designer seems to think to be boring. I'll take 2 examples :
1) Corpses retrieval in EQ, some of the most fun I had playing the game was CRing in retardingly difficult places, like lower seb, planes. It was challenging, required to be "creative" at times. Afaik, CR completely disappeared from MMOs, right ?
2) Logistic run in 0.0, getting my shit into 0.0, when there was no "99.9% safe shortcuts" and you have to get your stuff there in a shitty hauler with perma-camped 0.0 chokepoints was fun for me. Who the fuck still uses gates in eve, except cyno cloaked scouts ?

The problem is that for many players, unfortunately, the "fun" is to get instant reward all the time. This is especialy true for the casual player, a lot them absolutely need to "get something done" when they are playing.

I agree completely, corpse retrievals and logistic runs can be incredibly fun. But that's because they're challenging and risky. I really love trying to fly my way out through 0.0 to someplace crazy. My buddy actually flew his DRAKE all the way from the top of tenal to empire, past the largest perma gate camp (ec I think?) in the game. How? I have no idea, but he definitely did it while I was ratting.

Yes, the boring stuff is important, but adding more to a game that already has too much? And you can't tell me that POS fueling is somehow a fun and challenging part of the game. Why can't that be handled automatically through some game mechanic and instead change moons around so that you need to constantly survey it and find the best "spots" on the moon to get a new mineral? This might not make sense to all of you, but what if it worked similar to Dwarf Fortress and allowed you to locate hidden rare minerals at random locations. One moon could be an entire ball of minerals and finding them is the fun part. You could make it take a long period of time to get to the good stuff, but still make it somewhat fun and interesting.

I agree logistics are too easy. They have almost removed the fun involved in running the 0.0 market. Who's going to buy your marked up goods when everyone and their mother can make a jita run anytime they want? Even if you don't have a JF or Carrier, someone else can do a run for you practically by themselves (usually with an alt account) and bring back whatever you want. Logistics are almost devoid of risk nowadays.

I can hang with the best of them in terms of tedious gameplay when the rewards are right, but POS/station shooting and POS refueling/repairing are some of the most boring game mechanics I've ever taken part in, and need to change. Increasing risk while reducing cost and labor is a good direction to go in imo.

[Vilgan]

Maybe this thread should temporarily be named the Eve Peace Thread.

Seeings how there is dick all going on. I guess GS might hit insmother. Maybe. They are starting to realize how utterly useless RA is though and I don't know that anyone really gives a shit about Insmother besides RA. I guess they'll slowly clean out SP - which no one cares about in order to help an alliance (KW) that again... no one else cares about.

Bounce from forum to forum to forum, and there is dick all going on. Random roaming shit. Blah. There used to be interesting shit on Kugutsumen's site and SHC and sometimes even CAOD. Now it just seems like a wave of apathy and waiting.

Hopefully the Razor+friends vs Solar war kicks in to full gear soon. Then MAYBE there will be something to read about while I do pointless roaming gangs and grind isk for some reason.

[Arakkis]

Maybe you should permanently not post anymore.

[Wilfan]

Originally Posted by Vilgan

There used to be interesting shit on Kugutsumen's site and SHC and sometimes even CAOD. Now it just seems like a wave of apathy and waiting.

This strange period is known as "summertime" around most of the world.

[Araxen]

Just half of the world..

[Dyscord]

Everyone knows that people in the southern half of the world don't have computers though.

[Wilfan]

And those few that do lose to northerns all the time due to shitty ping.

(EVE fact: back when BoB mattered one of the excuses for losing to them was that most BoB members were UK so they have great ping to London server site so they were first to log in after node crash)