[EVE] The War Thread

[ShamusChad]

Not quite... I am saying that things like jump bridges, clones and warp speed (which matters in cross space travel) make the game bearable. Sometimes there isn't shit going on in a huge chunk of space (say Esoteria) and you have to get to empire. The mechanisms I mentioned (both inter and intra-zone) allow you to get where shit is actually happening. If you don't have the speed of a nano-gang then it would be even more unbearable without inter-zone mechanisms.

[Fog]

Originally Posted by ShamusChad

Not quite... I am saying that things like jump bridges, clones and warp speed (which matters in cross space travel) make the game bearable. Sometimes there isn't shit going on in a huge chunk of space (say Esoteria) and you have to get to empire.

No, you don't have to get to empire. You want to get to empire because you can and it's convenient. If you couldn't get to empire as easily, you wouldn't die because of it; you'd just find ways to not go there as often.

[Lorrac]

Originally Posted by ShamusChad

Travel time in Eve sucks though, worse than other games. This is especially true if you're not in a nano-gang. Most small gang PVP involves jumping around for 2 hours and pvping for 5 minutes as it is.

See? that's what fast ships were made for: faster reaction time, forward running forces first to hit the action. Of course speed tanking and outmaneuvering hybrid fleeds dragged down by the usual slowpokes. The whole EVE was built upon a huge galaxy. Nowadays when space is small because of travel speed the design starts cracking and going off the rails.

The thing is, no one's supposed to be jumping around for two hours to pvp: either hit targets next to you or if you are gonna hit foes far away establish a base of operations with logistics, etc (npc station/pos/deep space cans). The reason you need to jump two hours to find targets is because pvp is more consensual than ever.

The reason things didn't get going was because people didn't populate the low-sec / 0.0 areas. That's what fucked up everything: the original design (as in, the big picture not the minutae of it) was beautiful but it needed a spread population.

[Fog]

The current design would be fine if EVE was twice as big with twice as many people, in my opinion.

[ShamusChad]

Originally Posted by Fog

No, you don't have to get to empire. You want to get to empire because you can and it's convenient. If you couldn't get to empire as easily, you wouldn't die because of it; you'd just find ways to not go there as often.

Sometimes Empire is the only place you'll see any decent PVP. There are times where Delve is quiet except for a roaming gang or two of nano-ships and that is both stupid and boring. If you actually want to fight in this game then the mechanisms of travel that they have added in the past year are incredibly useful for that endeavor. It's POS warfare mechanics that are really killing the game and that should be the target of everyone's animosity.

[ShamusChad]

Originally Posted by Lorrac

See? that's what fast ships were made for: faster reaction time, forward running forces first to hit the action. Of course speed tanking and outmaneuvering hybrid fleeds dragged down by the usual slowpokes. The whole EVE was built upon a huge galaxy. Nowadays when space is small because of travel speed the design starts cracking and going off the rails.

The thing is, no one's supposed to be jumping around for two hours to pvp: either hit targets next to you or if you are gonna hit foes far away establish a base of operations with logistics, etc (npc station/pos/deep space cans). The reason you need to jump two hours to find targets is because pvp is more consensual than ever.

The reason things didn't get going was because people didn't populate the low-sec / 0.0 areas. That's what fucked up everything: the original design (as in, the big picture not the minutae of it) was beautiful but it needed a spread population.

Ok so you want to take a PVP game with the least PVP of any game per hour played and make it even slower. Sounds great.

[WillzZz]

Long travel time = boredom = better game? Yeah. Makes perfect sense.

SometimesI think olds-chool eve players are just filled with hate due to the ridiculous monotony and tedium they had to endure early on in the game. I assume they want everyone else to endure the pain they had to, so they rant accordingly. Kind of like old people yelling at you to get off of their lawn.

[ShamusChad]

I don't think people take into consideration the new problems that emerge when demanding changes on another dimension. For instance, imagine what would happen if they removed warp to zero (WTZ) in the age of nano-hac-recon gangs. Oh yea, kiss any other ships goodbye forever. It's just foolishness. The game needs a massive overhaul or else each individual change just makes the game worse (see: Cynojammers).

[OneofOne]

That's actually a great example Shamus.

[Gurgeh]

Originally Posted by WillzZz

Long travel time = boredom = better game? Yeah. Makes perfect sense.

SometimesI think olds-chool eve players are just filled with hate due to the ridiculous monotony and tedium they had to endure early on in the game. I assume they want everyone else to endure the pain they had to, so they rant accordingly. Kind of like old people yelling at you to get off of their lawn.

Then go play WoW, the king of instant gratification, which force you to click 3 times every second so you don't get "bored" and get the fuck out of Eve. It's not like EVERY fucking mmo HAS to be a WoW-like, I'm not shitting WoW thread about how they should introduce perma death to make the game interesting.

Eve is the closest thing to a "world simulation" there is actually, a lot of dumbasses think it's smart to turn eve in a single system PvP arena, 0 travel = cool, right ? because that's EXACTLY what has happened to Eve, everyone is in the same system (hello 75% of the Eve PvPers in Delve) resulting in massive stupidity.

People tend to forget that if you can't lose, you can't win either, in a PvP game. If there are no massive timesink when you fail, losing has no consequences and cool you can't lose, but you can't achieve anything either. There can't be an interesting MMO on the strategic scale without boring long travels, boring long timesinks. Failures must be painful so that victory can be sweet. Of course saying these kind of things to brain dead people that used to watch TV and just switched over to mmo (WoW, slight improvement over real TV, but still) is useless I guess.

Eve has always been Elitist, its developpers always said they were not targetting the masses but making a game they'd like to play, as old-school mmo players themselves. Eve is the only MMO that can be called a Role Playing Game, the only universe that is somewhat persistant, the only MMO that seems realistic. These things are not compatible with 0 travel time, 0 timesink, 0 boredom mechanisms. Don't like it ? move to any other MMO, not like you can go wrong, ALL the other mmo are like that and don't shit my virtual universe.

[Fog]

Originally Posted by ShamusChad

Sometimes Empire is the only place you'll see any decent PVP. There are times where Delve is quiet except for a roaming gang or two of nano-ships and that is both stupid and boring. If you actually want to fight in this game then the mechanisms of travel that they have added in the past year are incredibly useful for that endeavor. It's POS warfare mechanics that are really killing the game and that should be the target of everyone's animosity.

What is it that gets you "decent PvP" in empire that can't get you "decent PvP" in Delve? Stupider opponents?

In any case, I think you are shortsighted and thoughtless if you think that removing fast travel (jump bridges, mass risk-free asset movement with jump freighters and carriers) would make EVE "just like now, but slower." It would change the economy in 0.0 a great deal and it would make territory more meaningful, since you couldn't move your goods in and out of contested space easily or safely.

Also, I agree with the entirety of the above post, but I'm too nice to say it.

[Lorrac]

Originally Posted by ShamusChad

Sometimes Empire is the only place you'll see any decent PVP. There are times where Delve is quiet except for a roaming gang or two of nano-ships and that is both stupid and boring. If you actually want to fight in this game then the mechanisms of travel that they have added in the past year are incredibly useful for that endeavor. It's POS warfare mechanics that are really killing the game and that should be the target of everyone's animosity.

The reason delve is quiet is because unless a pos is attacked/needs to be defended they jumpclone/jumpbridge somewhere else. Since they don't need to earn money in Delve because it's easier to jumpclone and carebear somewhere safer, the region is quiet unless there's pos action. Because they can jumpbridge logistics between the systems there's no reason to make logistics ops anymore so the region is quiet. Finally, they can cyno in whatever they need from empire with rorquals/caps so there's no reason to actually control and defend the systems to allow your peeps to mine minerals. The end result of fast travel is that the region gets less action.

You can have an eve with slow travel and localized clusters of activity and player interaction (including pvp) or you can have an eve where you have to zap around via clones, cynos, whatever to find some pvp and the only reason you need to be in delve is to attack or defend pos's.

[Gurgeh]

The point in making travel time longer is to regionalize conflicts. If it takes you 1 whole week of logistic + 2 evenings of travel to start a war far from home, you aren't going to get every single Eve PvPer in F-T, QY6, JV1- whatever else overnight. Instead of having a Great War which happen in 1 region with everyone in it, you'd have had several conflicts everywhere.

You do not break blobs by stupid unrealistic game mechanisms, but by simple and fundamental changes that make sense. Every "super-smart" anti-blob feature they introduced resulted in ... more blob. The answer is simple : much longer travel time, increasing logistic difficulty by several order of magnitude.

It wouldn't mean you'd spend more time traveling, or spend more time logistic. You'd actually spend just as much probably, but you wouldn't go 50 jumps away for your evening roaming. You wouldn't have half the galaxy that can relocate overnight for a 3 day long operation.

[Lorrac]

Originally Posted by Gurgeh

The point in making travel time longer is to regionalize conflicts. If it takes you 1 whole week of logistic + 2 evenings of travel to start a war far from home, you aren't going to get every single Eve PvPer in F-T, QY6, JV1- whatever else overnight. Instead of having a Great War which happen in 1 region with everyone in it, you'd have had several conflicts everywhere.

You do not break blobs by stupid unrealistic game mechanisms, but by simple and fundamental changes that make sense. Every "super-smart" anti-blob feature they introduced resulted in ... more blob. The answer is simple : much longer travel time, increasing logistic difficulty by several order of magnitude.

It wouldn't mean you'd spend more time traveling, or spend more time logistic. You'd actually spend just as much probably, but you wouldn't go 50 jumps away for your evening roaming. You wouldn't have half the galaxy that can relocate overnight for a 3 day long operation.

Have you guys ever participated in a freighter op? that kind of thing would generate shitloads of pvp since it's a huge hit losing a full loaded freighter. Nowadays you just cyno in the shit. End result? 0 pvp.

[Inconsiderable]

id go with massive area rockets/bombs that deal increased damage depending on the number of ships hit. big blob = suicide = blobbing solved
like doomsday, just in good.