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[Pinski]

Originally Posted by Trebla

What would you say if you wanted the Sword of Pwn, but the only way to get it was to buy it from third-party farmers because they monopolized the spawn spot 24/7? That still has no effect on your gameplay?

Learn how to beat the farmers.

[Badass]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

Yeah you are right dumbass, lets compare a stored toon in a developers' server, completely owned by him and pretty much deletable at will with an electronic bank statement. Yeah you have a clue.

This is above your head. When you move out of your parents house you can post again. You see Billy, your stored toon (and the items it has) is worth money. We know this because there is a huge million dollar market for people buying and selling such things. That means it has value Billy.

Its kind of like the stock your parents own. Its just paper you say! No, there is a market for that stock and its value can be verified!

That means you have rights in your toon Billy. But you are so ignorant you are actually arguing that you dont want rights to the things you paid to own and worked for. Nice job. You actually think that its the developers alone who should profit from your hard work. Why dont you just sell yourself into slavery Billy?

Developers are relying on people like you Billy. The ignorant mongoloid masses who dont know what rights are. Who believe that a EULA is like the 10 commandments.

Your right though, the cash in your electronic bank statement is worth more than the gold in your WoW bank. The exchange rate is actually 100 gold per $15 dollars U.S. Thats a better exchange rate than most countries enjoy Billy.

[redjunkopera]

That is the most retarded analogy I've ever seen in my life. Kill yourself for the sake of humanity.

[Mero]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

Oh come on get a grip, please don't compare true wealth with pixels in a silly game.

Yeah...don't compare true wealth with pixels...

aah...

or...electronic bank accounts (code), bank numbers (numerals/code), timeshares (time), airspace (air), commercial paper/negotiable instruments(a promise), images (pixels), trademarks (symbols/alpha), even "likenesses", or payment for a news story, rights to a literary work, etc.

Just because its literally a "pixel" instead of a physically tangible piece of property doesn't make it valueless. To this day, the "image" or set of "pixels" of Elvis Presley is considered valuable. But do I physically possess Elvis? No. Does anyone? No. Its just a set of pixels, an image, or likeness; yet, it's valuable.

As Fairfield hypothesizes, I might not have written the music or provided the vocals to a song, but I certainly own the music on the CD. The songs are just digital data stored using PCM coding, but nothing more than "data" distributed via a CD or digital download. Is the data or song physically tangible? No. Notwithstanding, ...no one disputes that I own the song or data. The law recognizes my ownership interest and protects same through the criminal and civil laws of our States. If you would steal it, you would be prosecuted; not for theft from the distributor, producer or artist, but for the theft of my property.

I didn't invent it, I didn't make, I don't even see it, but I own it. It might be stored on a CD(a physical object), but thats no different than my platinum or ubersword.01 being stored on a hard drive in some server in Omaha.

Yeah, but...."its not worth anything...its on their servers, they can shut them down." True. But that doesn't mean I don't own it. Back to the CD example, there is no promise the music will stay in vogue; or that the CD will last forever; or that I won't scratch it, ruin it, lose it, or that CD players themselves will not disappear or cease to be manufactured or serviced.***

I purchase it knowing the risk involved, but that does not negate my ownership of the item. It might be worth money today, it might be worthless tomorrow(based on economics, demand, playability, etc), but I own it.

Wealth is wealth, property is property, it takes different forms, it has differing values, but it is property, whether virtual, intellectual, personal, or real.

***Note: Same can be said of bank accounts, account numbers, bank records, computers, the bank itself. My account statement says I have X amount of dollars in some account on some computer, but I realize numerous risks exist (to-wit: the bank can fold, (see S&L's during the '80s), bank theft, computer error, fraud, etc.) my money lost, but I accept this risk and realize that I have wealth in the form of code on some database "held" by a "business" in New York. Similar risks we assume for hackers of our MMO accounts. Or the equivalent risks we assume when subscribing to a MMO; or trusting that the company will continue to produce, exist, operate and service said business, analogous to my financial institution.

Apologize for the digression.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Samflam

Some well known douche on my WoW server sold his account for 2 grand and then one of his faggot friends reported the guy who bought it.
Deleted.

That's actually pretty funny. As I said, "a fool and his money . . . "

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Badass

This is above your head. When you move out of your parents house you can post again. You see Billy, your stored toon (and the items it has) is worth money. We know this because there is a huge million dollar market for people buying and selling such things. That means it has value Billy.

Its kind of like the stock your parents own. Its just paper you say! No, there is a market for that stock and its value can be verified!

That means you have rights in your toon Billy. But you are so ignorant you are actually arguing that you dont want rights to the things you paid to own and worked for. Nice job. You actually think that its the developers alone who should profit from your hard work. Why dont you just sell yourself into slavery Billy?

Developers are relying on people like you Billy. The ignorant mongoloid masses who dont know what rights are. Who believe that a EULA is like the 10 commandments.

Your right though, the cash in your electronic bank statement is worth more than the gold in your WoW bank. The exchange rate is actually 100 gold per $15 dollars U.S. Thats a better exchange rate than most countries enjoy Billy.

Badass please change your name to dumbass because it is more fitting. No one, not even me has said you can't make money OFF selling these pixels. Obviously you can, and people do.

And when you make absolutely retarded analogies to stock certificates it just proves further why you should change your name.

You have zero "rights' to your toon. It is a license, and as a license it can be terminated by the licensor for whatever reason NOT based on a protected class (race, creed, color, sex, national origin). That stock certificate you have remains the owners forever, even if the company went belly up, the certificate remains the property of the holder in due course. Your little toon in the developers' server is deletable at ANY TIME by the developer. At best you might argue a return of your money for the game or a rebate on the unused portion of you monthly fee paid. That is it. And don't quote me any case from some third world country that says otherwise.

NOW do you understand why I mock idiots who spend a fortune on deletable pixels? Or let me surmise, maybe you were one of the idiots?

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Mero

. . . .

I purchase it knowing the risk involved, but that does not negate my ownership of the item. . . . .

Without being repetitive to my prior post, state your authority for this please, unless it is mere opinion on your part. Then so state.

[Badass]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

Without being repetitive to my prior post, state your authority for this please, unless it is mere opinion on your part. Then so state.

Your ignorance is flamboyant and astounding. Breathtaking even. You are quoting law from findlaw about licenses. I and other attorneys here are arguing NEW LAW you fucking twit. We are arguing a new category of rights based on new technology. If you want to pay me 350 an hour to educate you I might consider it. Until then, work on graduating from high school and kindly remove your dumbass from this conversation.

There are many valid arguments to both sides of this issue, you are incapable of even recognizing what the issue is. Will virtual property rights be recognized? I dont know and niether does SOE. A court will have to decide and probably a supreme one.

Stock is exactly like virtual property you twit. It isnt tangible. However, it had verifiable value and can be traded thus can be recognized as property.

Any EULA that denies a paying customer any rights to virtual property he created and made valuable is doomed to defeat. SOE (and others, not picking on you guys) disagrees. It will be litigated soon enough.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Badass

Your ignorance is flamboyant and astounding. Breathtaking even. You are quoting law from findlaw about licenses. I and other attorneys here are arguing NEW LAW you fucking twit. We are arguing a new category of rights based on new technology. If you want to pay me 350 an hour to educate you I might consider it. Until then, work on graduating from high school and kindly remove your dumbass from this conversation.

There are many valid arguments to both sides of this issue, you are incapable of even recognizing what the issue is. Will virtual property rights be recognized? I dont know and niether does SOE. A court will have to decide and probably a supreme one.

Stock is exactly like virtual property you twit. It isnt tangible. However, it had verifiable value and can be traded thus can be recognized as property.

Any EULA that denies a paying customer any rights to virtual property he created and made valuable is doomed to defeat. SOE (and others, not picking on you guys) disagrees. It will be litigated soon enough.

Dumbass if you argue like this in court pick another profession. You keep changing your tune after every counter post I have made with you. NOW you say you are trying to argue NEW law, which to the layman means this law DOES NOT YET EXIST but maybe it might some day. And stop arguing how stock certificates are like virtual property. They are not, and most lawyers worth their salt know this, but apparently not you.

Neither side wants to ever take these issues into court, mainly because neither has anything to really gain. Yes SOE could try to enjoin these farmers but that means they need to constantly go after people at great legal expense whereas just deleting or suspending the target accounts is easier. Which is what they do and have an absolute legal right to do. IGE will never take this into court, and if they thought they could win they would have done it a long time ago. At BEST they could argue that what they sell is TIME (an argument they actually have stated). But all that argument gets them is AVOIDING potential penalties to the developers. It doesn't stop a developer from still banning their accounts.

There are ZERO US cases that hold that a player of a MMORPG has a property interest in the pixesl. Let me repeat, ZERO. So don't come puffing here spouting how there will be new law and that cases will rule otherwise someday. They won't. Because to do otherwise would literally destroy these games. Developers will now find themselves LIABLE to the players over their toons. Sorry Charlie, this ain't happening, no matter how hard you stomp your feet and hold your breath. The Courts aren't that stupid, tho you might get a California Court to agree initially simply because it is California.

So Mr 350/hour find another sucker to charge that amount and stop embarassing yourself here.

[redjunkopera]

Badass you fucking monumentally retarded git.

Your character and items are nothing more than rented property. Only some rang rang IGE shill would ever try and convince anyone otherwise.

Your writing abilities are equivalent to that of a talented 6th grader. You're a lawyer and I'm a chinese jet pilot.

Yes stock is intangible, yes virtual item/characters are intangible. That's where the similarities end.

You make a legally binding purchase of stock, you are not ever entering a purchasing agreement with the MMO company. That's all there is to it.

Lets say for some retarded reason a judge did decide that virtual property WAS yours to do with. All the MMO company has to do is shut down their server and delete the data... now your property is gone. Or they can decide to set the monthly fee to $8,000,000 a month (sorry I don't know how many yen that would be) and now you are fucked again.

That shit might fly in Korea but over here in the 1st world we know better.

[Nattac]

Originally Posted by Badass

That means you have rights in your toon Billy. But you are so ignorant you are actually arguing that you dont want rights to the things you paid to own and worked for.

Who believe that a EULA is like the 10 commandments.

These are just questions.. i really have no idea so please forgive me =X

1. I have the right to sell my toon on ebay with out it getting deleted? im so confused on that part. -again sorry for my stupidity

2. Are you saying the EULA is arguable, because every document basicly is?

And my names Billy what a cowincedence!!!

[Badass]

This is like arguing with mud, but mud is smarter. You two are either developers or just dumb. Im not trying to toot my own horn here (I promise), but you two calling me dumb is profoundly amusing.

In response to the last poster, You should be able to sell your characters wherever you want. The developers may ban you or delete the character. You should then sue them. They will argue their contract is rock solid fool proof. I will argue it is unconscionable and violates my property rights.

EULA are inherently challengeable, half the people who "agree" are under the age of majority and dont understand a word in there. Good luck enforcing that.

Developers are artificially restricting free trade and commerce and the U.S congress is already preparing to tax the sale of virtual property because so much money is being made. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORDS THAT ARE COMING OUT OF MY MOUTH???? I will not explain, if you still dont get it, fucking kill yourself.

Im not going to lecture on contract and property law. If it makes you feel better, keep believing you have no rights. In fact, why dont you just give me everything in your accounts, you dont own it or have rights in it anyway.

[Maxxius]

Dumbass please stop posting now, the more you type the more laughable you prove yourself to be. Seriously, if your firm bills your time time out at $350 an hour they are ripping their clients off.

These issues have been around now for almost a DECADE. You do understand what that word means no? And during all that time not ONE case held as you argue. And there's a reason for that. So don't start spouting vague buzzword arguments that NEVER succeeded in Court. Now you go argue how unconsionable it is and how it violates your property rights all you want. The Courts should hit you with sanctions for even bringing such a frivolous action. And you know what I challenge you to do so. Be a man. I'm sure there are plenty of cleints you can find on this website. Do it pro bono for the love of the law if you will. And after you get knocked out of Court remember this thread.

Don't even try to lecture me on contract and property law, just reading your extremely ignorant and obtuse little blogs indicates you really do suck at your profession. Stay in your cubicle and continue to post on these websites during your working hours. Maybe you might have a meeting "with the Bobs" too.

[Badass]

After you get a college degree, come talk to me. I have popped companies much larger than the one your parents work for. If your work in the industry, be so kind as to tell me for what company.

Im going to hang your post on my wall.

What issues have been around for a decade? How long has there been a multi-million dollar industry based on the exchange of virtual property? Congress has only recently begun to talk seriously about taxing virtual property. Things are much different now. Your infantile mind cant grasp the ramifacations of that can you. Times have changed.

Originally Posted by Maxxius

These issues have been around now for almost a DECADE. You do understand what that word means no?

This is what I mean when I call you stupid. You are out of your league, finish high school. These two sentences make no sense in conjunction. Do I understand what the word decade means? Ehh ok. I dont get it.

Originally Posted by Maxxius

And during all that time not ONE case held as you argue. And there's a reason for that. So don't start spouting vague buzzword arguments that NEVER succeeded in Court.

Please cite any cases involving virtual property rights to support your rambling.
Your saying virtual property rights dont exist, that some of the purposefully vague arguments that I and others have posted havent worked, well....cites please. Where havent they worked? And why exactly wont they work smart guy?

Originally Posted by Maxxius

Now you go argue how unconsionable it is and how it violates your property rights all you want. The Courts should hit you with sanctions for even bringing such a frivolous action.

Are you kidding me ???? Frivolous. Hahahhaha. Good one.

Originally Posted by Maxxius

And you know what I challenge you to do so. Be a man. I'm sure there are plenty of cleints you can find on this website. Do it pro bono for the love of the law if you will. And after you get knocked out of Court remember this thread.

I will make you a deal. I have never heard someone so zealously argue they have no rights. You are either stupid, or you have a stake in the argument. So why dont YOU be a man and tell us all where you work.

Riddle me this genius, why does IGE still exist?

[Maxxius]

Badass stop presuming please. That is your biggest mistake. Eventually you will learn that assuming something to be true doesn't make it true. IGE, for example, has been around for a long time yet not once have they litigated what you try to suggest. Why? Because as I said they have nothing to gain. They certainly can afford the legal bills but they are advised, I am sure, by attorneys who actually know the law, unlike you.

This isn't an issue of rights, as if somehow civil liberties are at stake. Stop acting like a child. We are dealing with pretty simple issues here. We are talking about GAMES. We are talking about whether you receive the benefit of your small monetary expenditure on a product.

Seriously I have to believe that you have zero court room experience. And don't try to argue otherwise since based on your posting dealing with the likes of you is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Oh and why does IGE still exist? Because there are enough idiots who are willing to buy their crap, just as there are plenty who buy drugs. I can sell you swamp land in florida too, or even the Brooklyn bridge if you want.